Microphones and Recording Audio with Mike Senior

[00:00:00] Thank you everybody for joining us so early and for sticking through the technical difficulties. I was imagining that we would all be sort of like, I guess Neil and I, we'd be kind of grumbling because it's a little early for us.

[00:00:12] All right.

[00:00:12] Later for you folks.

[00:00:13] Yeah, a tiny bit.

[00:00:13] But I thought, let's start off today's episode with a little bit of humor, huh? I got a couple of jokes for us to sort of warm us up here.

[00:00:23] So what do you call a microphone with a great sense of humor?

[00:00:28] I don't know. What do you call a microphone with a great sense of humor?

[00:00:32] A stand-up mic.

[00:00:33] A stand-up mic.

[00:00:36] I was thinking it could have been a ribbing mic, but it's me being funny.

[00:00:40] That's a good one. That's a good one. I like that.

[00:00:43] Okay. How many recording engineers does it take to change a light bulb?

[00:00:48] And if this were producers, I'd know the answer.

[00:00:50] Because if it were producers, the answer is, I don't know. What do you think?

[00:00:59] Engineers, I'm interested to know the recording engineer one though. Go right ahead.

[00:01:02] So the answer is none. They'll just mic it up and sample the sound of the old one burning out.

[00:01:09] Fix it in the mix.

[00:01:10] Yeah, it's fix it in the mix. There you go.

[00:01:12] And last one. How many sound engineers does it take to mic up a band?

[00:01:21] I don't know. How many?

[00:01:22] I don't know.

[00:01:23] Just one, but it'll take them at least 20 minutes to decide on the perfect placement for the snare mic.

[00:01:29] Yeah, yeah.

[00:01:30] Bam! Let's get the show started.

[00:01:34] Hello, and welcome to Sound Discussion.

[00:01:37] Each episode, we discuss a music topic which we have all had first-hand experience with.

[00:01:42] These will be anything from getting started, recording, playing live, mixing, mastering, and everything in between.

[00:01:49] Most episodes will have a special guest to bring their professional experience to the discussion.

[00:01:54] Let's get started.

[00:02:00] This month's guest is a highly respected figure in the music industry,

[00:02:03] known for his expertise and educational contributions to audio recording and production.

[00:02:08] With a career spanning several decades, he has worked as a recording engineer, producer, and most recently, an author.

[00:02:15] He is probably best known for his books, Recording Secrets for the Small Studio,

[00:02:20] and Mixing Secrets for the Small Studio.

[00:02:22] Which has become a go-to resource for both aspiring and professional audio engineers.

[00:02:26] His experience writing the Mix Rescue series for Sound on Sound magazine

[00:02:29] further solidifies his reputation as a leading authority in the field,

[00:02:33] where he shares in-depth insights and practical advice on mixing, mastering, and recording techniques.

[00:02:39] In addition to his writing, he is the founder of themixreview.org and cambridgemt.com,

[00:02:44] the latter being an excellent website that provides multi-track downloads for educational purposes,

[00:02:51] allowing aspiring engineers to practice mixing and mastering on real-world projects.

[00:02:56] Through his work on Caberns MT, Sound on Sound, his authored books, and his Patreon podcast,

[00:03:01] he continues to inspire and educate the next generation of audio professionals.

[00:03:06] His practical approach to mixing and production techniques has earned him a reputation as a trusted mentor

[00:03:12] and advisor to musicians and producers worldwide.

[00:03:15] There is no doubt that his ongoing contributions will continue to make a lasting impact on the art and science of music production.

[00:03:23] And just a small aside, I will say that your books were my audio education.

[00:03:33] These were the first two books that I bought when I was jumping in,

[00:03:37] trying to figure out what the hell I was going to do and how I was going to do it.

[00:03:41] And I knew you from sound on sound, and I bought these books, and these were my textbooks.

[00:03:48] So it is my honor, really, to have with us today, Mr. Mike Sr.

[00:03:55] Hello, everyone.

[00:03:56] Welcome.

[00:03:59] It's so great to have you here.

[00:04:00] It's when you start saying, in a career spanning decades, that's where I kind of go,

[00:04:04] has it really been that long?

[00:04:06] But it really has.

[00:04:07] That's the distressing thing about it.

[00:04:09] You get up every morning and do the same old things every day and every week and every month,

[00:04:12] and then you look around the next moment, it's like 20 years have passed.

[00:04:16] You go, wow, all that stuff I did in that 20 years.

[00:04:19] Yeah, it piles up.

[00:04:21] It's amazing, A, how quickly time goes.

[00:04:24] But B, how much you have been a part of a lot of things, right?

[00:04:29] Aside from where you started out, your studio work, and we'll get into that here in a moment.

[00:04:34] But you're kind of everywhere, right?

[00:04:39] We see you on sound on sound.

[00:04:40] You started there as an editor.

[00:04:42] Then you went into the freelance type stuff, and you were writing – you started a couple of columns,

[00:04:48] and you kept doing them, and then your Cambridge MT website, which in all of my conversations with people,

[00:04:55] and people ask, where can I practice?

[00:04:57] Where can I get multitracks?

[00:04:59] And I always send them to your website because –

[00:05:01] Well, that's kind of you.

[00:05:02] Thank you.

[00:05:03] It's an excellent resource, right?

[00:05:05] And then your Patreon podcast, which full disclosure, I am a Patreon supporter of your channel and have been for –

[00:05:10] Very much appreciated.

[00:05:11] A number of years.

[00:05:13] And it, again, has proven to be a very worthwhile contribution.

[00:05:18] I've gotten a lot out of it, and I always enjoy the content you put out there.

[00:05:22] So enough about me.

[00:05:24] I'm going to shut up now.

[00:05:26] Mike, tell us a little bit about who you are for those who might not know.

[00:05:30] How did you get started?

[00:05:32] And sort of how it all came about.

[00:05:35] Guys, it's a long and secure story.

[00:05:38] In fact, if you want to get the full details, probably listen to Working Class Audio Podcast.

[00:05:42] There we go.

[00:05:43] We went deep into the past.

[00:05:44] We went deep into the past there.

[00:05:46] Most podcasts you've been on, you've done a deep dive into your history.

[00:05:51] So let's have the sort of bullet points.

[00:05:52] Yeah, it's a bit torturous.

[00:05:53] But to give it kind of the Cliff Notes thing, basically I'm classically trained.

[00:05:58] I then got into studio work when I was in university doing a music degree.

[00:06:03] Then worked a bit in studios.

[00:06:06] Moved back to Cambridge to be with the woman who has since become my wife.

[00:06:10] And while I was there, that's where Sound on Sound magazine is based.

[00:06:14] And that's where I kind of sidestepped then into a lot of writing work and training work and teaching work.

[00:06:20] And then obviously freelance engineering.

[00:06:22] And that expanded into the books and into doing tutorial video content.

[00:06:27] And the site really kind of grew up in a sense around the Multitrack Library,

[00:06:32] which when I first moved to Cambridge, I did a bit of substitute teaching and was amazed that at that time,

[00:06:41] which was 2006, something like that, that a Multitrack Library didn't already exist on the net.

[00:06:47] I thought, isn't that what the net's for?

[00:06:48] I'm amazed someone hasn't done it.

[00:06:49] I just happened to be in the position because I'd done a few mixed rescues that I was able to set it up.

[00:06:53] And that then kind of kick-started the website and was popular.

[00:06:57] A lot of people found it useful, as I found it useful when I was doing my teaching stuff.

[00:07:02] And then that kind of expanded from there.

[00:07:04] So yeah, everything grew out of that slightly serendipitous arrival at Sound on Sound

[00:07:10] and then building resources from there.

[00:07:13] Amazing.

[00:07:13] I mean, I agree with you.

[00:07:14] I think when I first started getting into music,

[00:07:18] one of the things that you can never understand is,

[00:07:20] why doesn't anything I record sound like the stuff I'm hearing on the radio?

[00:07:24] And the answer to that is because you haven't recorded it very well.

[00:07:26] That is the honest answer.

[00:07:28] But the reason you don't know that you haven't recorded it very well

[00:07:32] is because I was like, well, this is what it's truly,

[00:07:35] this is what everyone starts with.

[00:07:36] And unless you can get your hands on some Multitracks to go,

[00:07:38] oh no, a properly recorded Multitrack sounds like this.

[00:07:42] You have no way of knowing that your stuff is actually not very good.

[00:07:44] And it's not that it's a bad song or you're a bad songwriter.

[00:07:47] It's that your tracks are bad to start with.

[00:07:50] A hundred percent.

[00:07:51] And in fact, it's a kind of chicken and the egg thing.

[00:07:53] It's like, how are you supposed to practice mixing

[00:07:57] unless you've got some stuff that's recorded?

[00:07:59] But I actually think it's the other way around is more important.

[00:08:02] It's like, how are you supposed to learn how to record

[00:08:04] if you don't know what's useful when you mix it?

[00:08:06] And I think that's where the Multitrack library really is important for me

[00:08:10] because I think people should learn how to mix before they learn how to record.

[00:08:13] Because it's all the mixing that I've done

[00:08:15] that more than anything probably has taught me how to record.

[00:08:17] Because I've found myself swearing blind about some ridiculous recording someone's done.

[00:08:22] And they're like, how the hell am I going to get a sound out of this?

[00:08:24] And then it makes me go, well, when I next do a recording,

[00:08:26] I'm not going to put myself in this position.

[00:08:28] And yeah.

[00:08:29] You learn what not to do.

[00:08:30] It informs your recording when you know how to mix.

[00:08:33] Yeah.

[00:08:33] Huge deal.

[00:08:34] That's really interesting.

[00:08:36] We've talked about that before on this podcast of like,

[00:08:39] you know, mixing or recording with the mix in mind.

[00:08:43] And just making sure that you've got that in mind.

[00:08:46] And yeah.

[00:08:47] If you mix before, like if you've been learning to mix,

[00:08:51] then, you know, if you've got that in mind recording,

[00:08:54] that just makes your life so much easier.

[00:08:56] And I mean, it's a fair question as well.

[00:08:58] People often ask, well, how should it sound?

[00:09:01] Because you only ever hear the mixed result as a consumer.

[00:09:04] So when you're learning to record,

[00:09:05] the concept of how should it sound,

[00:09:08] you don't really know.

[00:09:09] Because you don't know how that goes through the funnel of the mix.

[00:09:11] A really good example is electric guitars.

[00:09:13] The number of people who,

[00:09:14] when they first are recording their band,

[00:09:17] they drive all their electric guitars too hard.

[00:09:19] Because all the records they hear

[00:09:20] are these multi-layered guitar confections.

[00:09:23] And so they think they've got to get all of that

[00:09:25] out of their single guitar.

[00:09:26] So then they record it that way.

[00:09:28] And then wonder why they can't get that sound

[00:09:29] that they hear on the records.

[00:09:30] It's because, well, that's not what they recorded.

[00:09:33] So yeah.

[00:09:34] Definitely.

[00:09:35] Knowing how to mix

[00:09:36] is the thing that tells you how to record, I think.

[00:09:40] I think that's the other thing, isn't it?

[00:09:42] Sorry.

[00:09:42] Sorry, now.

[00:09:43] I was going to say,

[00:09:43] that's the other thing with the,

[00:09:44] if you get your hands on the multi-tracks,

[00:09:47] is you suddenly realise how many tracks

[00:09:50] go into making,

[00:09:52] well, in your example, that guitar sound.

[00:09:54] It's not, they plug their guitar in,

[00:09:56] set all the dials to 11,

[00:09:58] and just play, you know,

[00:09:59] it might be nine different guitar tracks

[00:10:02] from five different amps

[00:10:03] with three different guitars.

[00:10:06] And you don't know that as a consumer,

[00:10:08] you just go,

[00:10:08] I just want that big,

[00:10:09] I don't know,

[00:10:10] Metallica guitar sound.

[00:10:11] You have no idea of the actual concepts

[00:10:13] that go behind it

[00:10:14] until you get your hands on the multi-tracks

[00:10:15] when you're like,

[00:10:16] oh, wait a minute.

[00:10:17] All of these tracks sound really,

[00:10:20] they're playing the same thing,

[00:10:21] but they sound different.

[00:10:22] And that's, I think,

[00:10:24] where, that's where I,

[00:10:25] when I suddenly,

[00:10:26] when I found that,

[00:10:27] those multi-track sites

[00:10:28] and you were able to sort of take it apart

[00:10:30] and understand how it goes together,

[00:10:31] it helps you,

[00:10:33] as you say,

[00:10:33] it helps you with recording,

[00:10:34] helps you with producing,

[00:10:36] because if you're,

[00:10:37] most of the people

[00:10:38] who listen to our podcast,

[00:10:39] apart from my mum,

[00:10:40] are at home,

[00:10:43] probably in their own studio,

[00:10:44] writing their own music.

[00:10:46] And it helps them with producing,

[00:10:48] it helps them with recording,

[00:10:49] just to get,

[00:10:50] to understand how those tracks

[00:10:51] all go together.

[00:10:54] And I think,

[00:10:55] I think there's definitely a sense as well

[00:10:57] that when people listen to a production,

[00:11:00] unless they know how the thing's

[00:11:01] been put together,

[00:11:02] they tend to lump things together

[00:11:04] that are often separate elements.

[00:11:06] Like you say,

[00:11:07] you know,

[00:11:07] they listen to the guitar sound

[00:11:08] and think,

[00:11:09] that's a guitar,

[00:11:10] when it may be six layers of guitar.

[00:11:12] And it may be that

[00:11:13] that guitar part in time

[00:11:14] also is a guitar arrangement

[00:11:17] rather than a guitar part.

[00:11:19] In fact,

[00:11:19] that's one of the biggest

[00:11:21] kind of arrangement,

[00:11:23] what is it,

[00:11:23] lessons that I try and teach people

[00:11:25] about guitars,

[00:11:25] is that a guitar part

[00:11:26] isn't a part,

[00:11:27] it's an arrangement.

[00:11:28] You know,

[00:11:29] when you go up to that,

[00:11:30] you go to the chugging bit

[00:11:31] before you get into the chorus,

[00:11:33] probably you're going to want

[00:11:33] to have a slightly different

[00:11:34] guitar sound there

[00:11:35] or the different layers

[00:11:36] or something.

[00:11:36] And then when it hits the chorus,

[00:11:37] you want something else to come in.

[00:11:38] And then when it goes to the,

[00:11:39] I don't know,

[00:11:40] the solo,

[00:11:40] then it's going to be

[00:11:41] something different.

[00:11:42] And it's not just about,

[00:11:43] oh,

[00:11:43] it's all in the guitars.

[00:11:44] It's no,

[00:11:45] it's,

[00:11:45] there's an arrangement involved in it,

[00:11:46] but you don't hear it.

[00:11:47] You just think it's a guitar

[00:11:48] when you're a listener,

[00:11:50] but to the producer,

[00:11:51] it's a guitar arrangement.

[00:11:53] Yeah.

[00:11:54] Yeah.

[00:11:54] That is,

[00:11:54] that is really important

[00:11:56] because it's not,

[00:11:57] there's this sort of like cloak,

[00:12:00] right?

[00:12:00] This,

[00:12:00] this curtain when you're

[00:12:01] listening to a song

[00:12:03] and you don't know

[00:12:04] what went into it.

[00:12:05] All you're hearing

[00:12:05] is the final product,

[00:12:06] but there's a really great

[00:12:08] visual example.

[00:12:09] I'm sure there's plenty,

[00:12:11] but one that sticks out to me

[00:12:13] is the documentary

[00:12:14] Back and Forth

[00:12:15] with the Foo Fighters.

[00:12:17] They were recording that record

[00:12:19] in their home

[00:12:20] with Butch Vig.

[00:12:21] And there's a number of scenes,

[00:12:23] but one sticks out in my mind

[00:12:24] of literally this wall of speakers

[00:12:27] that Dave Grohl was playing into.

[00:12:29] And it was probably

[00:12:30] six or seven speakers,

[00:12:32] amps,

[00:12:33] all being mic'd up

[00:12:34] and recorded.

[00:12:35] And that is the sound,

[00:12:37] right?

[00:12:37] It's a blend of like

[00:12:39] six or seven different speakers.

[00:12:41] Maybe they cut one out.

[00:12:42] I don't know.

[00:12:43] But that's,

[00:12:44] that's the sound

[00:12:44] of at least one of their songs

[00:12:46] that they show

[00:12:47] in,

[00:12:47] in the documentary.

[00:12:48] And I think that's

[00:12:51] pretty typical actually,

[00:12:53] right?

[00:12:53] Like you're,

[00:12:54] you're,

[00:12:54] you know,

[00:12:54] you're not just getting one sound.

[00:12:56] You're,

[00:12:56] you're taking layers

[00:12:58] and patchworks

[00:12:59] of different sounds

[00:13:00] and putting them together.

[00:13:01] And that's the final product.

[00:13:04] Well,

[00:13:04] the other thing to realize

[00:13:05] with those kinds of

[00:13:06] big productions

[00:13:07] is that if you're going

[00:13:08] to do a record

[00:13:09] and make it enjoyable

[00:13:11] for the musicians

[00:13:11] and quick for the musicians,

[00:13:13] one of the standard techniques

[00:13:15] to make that possible

[00:13:17] is basically to set up

[00:13:18] everything that anyone's

[00:13:19] ever going to need

[00:13:20] all at once.

[00:13:22] And then all you need

[00:13:23] to do at any point

[00:13:24] is just select

[00:13:25] which channels you use.

[00:13:26] So often things

[00:13:27] when you look at a session

[00:13:28] look much more complicated

[00:13:29] than actually what ends up

[00:13:31] on the record

[00:13:32] because they've,

[00:13:32] they've just got everything

[00:13:33] set up so that at any moment

[00:13:35] someone can go,

[00:13:35] you know what,

[00:13:36] what would banjo sound like

[00:13:37] on this?

[00:13:38] And the banjo is already there

[00:13:39] and it's already mic'd up

[00:13:40] and they've already soundchecked it

[00:13:41] and the headphones

[00:13:41] are already set up

[00:13:42] and no one needs

[00:13:43] to think about it.

[00:13:44] And yeah,

[00:13:45] this is,

[00:13:46] you know,

[00:13:47] recording is as much

[00:13:48] a kind of a psychological thing

[00:13:49] as it is a technical thing

[00:13:51] and so a lot of the complexity

[00:13:53] you see in big sessions

[00:13:55] isn't actually complexity,

[00:13:56] it's just this ability

[00:13:58] to move quickly

[00:13:59] and change,

[00:14:00] it's flexibility

[00:14:00] rather than complexity.

[00:14:03] So that kind of brings me

[00:14:05] into one of the topics

[00:14:07] I wanted to discuss

[00:14:08] and you know,

[00:14:09] today's topic was going

[00:14:11] to be about,

[00:14:11] or is going to be about,

[00:14:12] you know,

[00:14:12] microphone technique.

[00:14:14] And I've already managed

[00:14:15] to sidetrack you.

[00:14:16] And we've already managed,

[00:14:16] but you know what,

[00:14:17] it's all relevant,

[00:14:19] it's all relevant.

[00:14:20] So the one thing,

[00:14:21] I was thinking about it

[00:14:22] this morning,

[00:14:23] you know,

[00:14:23] I wrote down a couple of ideas,

[00:14:25] you know,

[00:14:25] I'd like to touch upon

[00:14:26] these things

[00:14:27] but maybe we won't.

[00:14:29] Mic techniques

[00:14:30] and micing a single sources,

[00:14:32] more mics,

[00:14:33] less mics,

[00:14:35] phase alignment,

[00:14:35] all that jazz.

[00:14:36] But the one thing

[00:14:38] that hit me

[00:14:39] this morning

[00:14:39] that I'm like,

[00:14:40] oh,

[00:14:40] we have to talk about this

[00:14:41] is,

[00:14:43] are microphones

[00:14:44] still relevant

[00:14:44] in the digital age

[00:14:46] with the amp modeling

[00:14:48] that we have

[00:14:48] with microphone emulation

[00:14:50] built in

[00:14:51] and virtual instruments

[00:14:52] with mic emulation

[00:14:54] built in

[00:14:54] and,

[00:14:55] you know,

[00:14:56] modeling microphones.

[00:14:57] I've got one

[00:14:58] above my head

[00:14:59] that I use

[00:15:01] which gives me

[00:15:02] a huge locker

[00:15:04] of microphones

[00:15:05] to choose from

[00:15:06] when I'm recording

[00:15:07] or after I've recorded.

[00:15:08] and it's saved

[00:15:10] my take

[00:15:11] a number of times,

[00:15:13] right?

[00:15:14] So,

[00:15:15] in this day and age

[00:15:17] of everything digital,

[00:15:18] everything in the box,

[00:15:20] are microphones

[00:15:21] still relevant?

[00:15:26] I think

[00:15:29] they're one of the only

[00:15:30] relevant things,

[00:15:30] in fact.

[00:15:31] I'd flip it,

[00:15:32] flip it round.

[00:15:34] The great thing

[00:15:35] about all the digital stuff

[00:15:36] is that

[00:15:37] it'll,

[00:15:38] it'll deal with signals,

[00:15:39] it'll deal with stuff

[00:15:40] once it's

[00:15:41] in the digital domain.

[00:15:43] But I think

[00:15:43] the thing that

[00:15:44] makes probably

[00:15:45] the biggest difference

[00:15:46] to any production,

[00:15:47] my kind of rule of thumb

[00:15:48] is that

[00:15:49] the things that

[00:15:50] you need to,

[00:15:51] and the things certainly

[00:15:51] I would say

[00:15:52] spend money on

[00:15:53] because you can do

[00:15:53] almost everything else now,

[00:15:54] honestly,

[00:15:55] for free

[00:15:55] in a computer

[00:15:56] in the digital domain.

[00:15:58] The thing I'd spend money on

[00:15:59] is anything that touches

[00:16:00] the air vibrations.

[00:16:02] So,

[00:16:02] no,

[00:16:03] you're talking

[00:16:03] your speakers,

[00:16:04] you're talking

[00:16:04] your acoustic treatment,

[00:16:06] both when you're recording

[00:16:06] and you're mixing,

[00:16:07] you're talking about

[00:16:08] your microphones,

[00:16:09] your instruments,

[00:16:10] the players,

[00:16:11] you know,

[00:16:11] all that,

[00:16:12] it's all that stuff

[00:16:13] that the digital technology

[00:16:15] is still not very good

[00:16:16] at dealing with,

[00:16:17] whatever manufacturers

[00:16:18] may tell you.

[00:16:19] That's kind of what

[00:16:20] I was hoping you'd say.

[00:16:21] Yeah.

[00:16:21] I mean,

[00:16:22] there are still

[00:16:23] definite ways

[00:16:25] in which

[00:16:27] expensive microphones

[00:16:28] are going to make

[00:16:29] your life a lot easier

[00:16:30] than cheaper microphones.

[00:16:32] You can't,

[00:16:33] you still can't take

[00:16:34] a 57

[00:16:34] and expect that

[00:16:36] it's going to operate

[00:16:36] like a really nice

[00:16:38] Norman microphone

[00:16:38] or something.

[00:16:39] And it's not,

[00:16:40] and the thing is that

[00:16:41] I think a lot of people

[00:16:42] try and build this myth

[00:16:43] of,

[00:16:44] oh,

[00:16:44] our cheap microphone

[00:16:45] is just as good

[00:16:46] as an expensive one

[00:16:47] based on doing

[00:16:48] vocal shootouts.

[00:16:50] And that's a really

[00:16:51] bad test for it

[00:16:52] because actually

[00:16:53] vocal recording,

[00:16:55] the actual technical

[00:16:55] bit of vocal recording

[00:16:57] is one of the simplest

[00:16:59] recording tasks.

[00:17:00] In the recording secrets book,

[00:17:01] that's one of the tasks

[00:17:02] I take on first

[00:17:03] because it is

[00:17:05] comparatively simple.

[00:17:06] You know,

[00:17:06] you tend to record

[00:17:07] in a very dead environment.

[00:17:08] Acoustics don't really matter.

[00:17:10] It's pretty much,

[00:17:11] it's recorded close up.

[00:17:13] You know,

[00:17:14] you're not,

[00:17:15] the thing's not moving around.

[00:17:16] You're not recording

[00:17:17] in an ensemble.

[00:17:18] It might be moving around a bit.

[00:17:19] That's one of the complications.

[00:17:20] But,

[00:17:21] and so,

[00:17:23] and because each voice

[00:17:24] is different

[00:17:24] and so complicated,

[00:17:28] it's very common

[00:17:29] when you do a mic shootout

[00:17:30] that you'll find

[00:17:31] that microphones

[00:17:33] that are cheaper

[00:17:35] and kind of

[00:17:36] the equivalent,

[00:17:37] the meaning of that

[00:17:38] is that they're

[00:17:39] less general purpose,

[00:17:40] they're less neutral,

[00:17:41] they're less faithful,

[00:17:42] they're less,

[00:17:42] you know,

[00:17:43] they enhance things

[00:17:44] in some way.

[00:17:45] They skew the sound

[00:17:46] in some way.

[00:17:46] They change the sound

[00:17:48] in some way

[00:17:48] and one of your microphones

[00:17:50] that is not as good

[00:17:51] as a really nice neutral one

[00:17:52] is going to make you sound

[00:17:53] better than you are

[00:17:54] because it tweaks it

[00:17:56] in a way that happens

[00:17:56] to appeal to you.

[00:17:57] Whereas the neutral microphone

[00:17:59] will just show you

[00:18:00] what's there.

[00:18:01] So,

[00:18:02] usually in mic shootouts,

[00:18:03] the most expensive mic

[00:18:04] won't win

[00:18:05] but I've done

[00:18:06] lots and lots

[00:18:08] and lots of microphone

[00:18:09] shootouts

[00:18:09] over time

[00:18:10] on vocals

[00:18:11] and the thing

[00:18:11] that I can tell you

[00:18:12] is that

[00:18:13] the cheaper microphones

[00:18:15] will from time to time

[00:18:16] absolutely crash and burn

[00:18:17] and be horrible

[00:18:18] on a singer.

[00:18:19] The expensive microphone

[00:18:20] will always be there

[00:18:21] in the top two or three

[00:18:23] and that in a sense

[00:18:24] is a more revealing

[00:18:25] thing to say

[00:18:26] about that kind of microphone

[00:18:27] is that

[00:18:29] it depends what you want

[00:18:30] to use a microphone for

[00:18:31] but once you start

[00:18:32] getting outside

[00:18:33] that little

[00:18:35] rather misleading test

[00:18:36] of the vocal microphone

[00:18:37] shootout

[00:18:38] where, you know,

[00:18:38] you'll see it on YouTube

[00:18:39] or other places

[00:18:39] they'll get four or five microphones

[00:18:40] they'll sing it to one

[00:18:41] and they go

[00:18:41] oh actually

[00:18:41] I like the 57.

[00:18:42] It's like,

[00:18:43] oh okay

[00:18:43] but there's a lot more

[00:18:45] to microphones than that.

[00:18:46] There's the issue

[00:18:47] of like

[00:18:47] what the off-axis response

[00:18:49] is like

[00:18:49] if you're recording

[00:18:50] something larger

[00:18:50] than a singer.

[00:18:52] It's like

[00:18:53] particularly

[00:18:54] what the spill

[00:18:55] and pickup

[00:18:56] of acoustic

[00:18:57] ambience is about.

[00:18:59] That's a huge deal.

[00:19:01] So,

[00:19:02] do you think then

[00:19:03] for people

[00:19:04] who have got

[00:19:05] their own studio

[00:19:05] at home

[00:19:06] and they might have

[00:19:07] spent a long time

[00:19:08] treating the room

[00:19:09] and it's a lovely environment

[00:19:10] and they, you know,

[00:19:11] they know what they're doing.

[00:19:13] Do you think then

[00:19:14] that having

[00:19:16] a good quality microphone

[00:19:18] will be more flexible

[00:19:20] for them

[00:19:21] i.e.

[00:19:22] they could use it

[00:19:23] for vocals

[00:19:23] but they could also

[00:19:24] record their guitar

[00:19:25] with it

[00:19:25] or they could

[00:19:26] then necessarily

[00:19:27] a 57

[00:19:28] which,

[00:19:29] you know,

[00:19:30] that's typical

[00:19:30] people tend to,

[00:19:31] yeah,

[00:19:31] can use it on vocals

[00:19:32] and guitar

[00:19:32] but actually

[00:19:34] does it give them

[00:19:35] more,

[00:19:35] it's more money

[00:19:36] but it will give them

[00:19:37] more versatility

[00:19:38] and what they can

[00:19:38] use that microphone

[00:19:39] for.

[00:19:40] Is that kind of

[00:19:41] what you're saying?

[00:19:41] It's always a good

[00:19:42] microphone.

[00:19:43] With every question

[00:19:44] about what microphone

[00:19:45] you're going to get

[00:19:46] it's always going to be

[00:19:47] a question of how

[00:19:47] many microphones

[00:19:48] you need,

[00:19:48] how many different

[00:19:49] tasks you need

[00:19:50] to cover

[00:19:51] with those microphones

[00:19:52] and so the answer,

[00:19:53] there's never really

[00:19:54] an answer properly

[00:19:55] to the question of

[00:19:55] oh, what mic

[00:19:56] should I get first,

[00:19:57] how much should I

[00:19:57] spend on it

[00:19:58] unless you know

[00:19:58] the extent of what

[00:20:00] someone's recording

[00:20:00] requirements are.

[00:20:01] If they want to

[00:20:01] record their band

[00:20:02] in a rehearsal room

[00:20:03] then you're going

[00:20:04] to want more mics

[00:20:05] to do that

[00:20:06] so you're going

[00:20:06] to have to

[00:20:07] use cheaper mics

[00:20:07] and so probably

[00:20:09] the concern about

[00:20:10] whether each

[00:20:10] individual mic

[00:20:11] is as high quality

[00:20:12] within the budget

[00:20:13] is less of a concern.

[00:20:14] You're just trying

[00:20:14] to get the coverage

[00:20:15] whereas if it's

[00:20:17] just someone

[00:20:17] and all they're

[00:20:17] doing is doing

[00:20:18] dance music

[00:20:19] and occasionally

[00:20:19] recording vocals

[00:20:21] and they're going

[00:20:21] to put their

[00:20:22] whole mic budget

[00:20:23] on a vocal mic

[00:20:25] then yeah,

[00:20:26] I'd want to get

[00:20:27] a probably

[00:20:27] fairly decent vocal

[00:20:28] mic,

[00:20:28] especially if

[00:20:29] they're doing

[00:20:30] lots of different

[00:20:30] singers

[00:20:31] because that is

[00:20:32] again,

[00:20:33] like I said before

[00:20:33] with the mic shootout

[00:20:34] thing,

[00:20:35] you know,

[00:20:35] that's where

[00:20:36] the expensive

[00:20:36] microphones really

[00:20:37] shine because

[00:20:38] any singer is going

[00:20:39] to sound good

[00:20:40] on them,

[00:20:40] not just the one

[00:20:42] who happens to

[00:20:42] suit that particular

[00:20:43] microphone.

[00:20:44] Interesting.

[00:20:46] Yeah,

[00:20:46] yeah,

[00:20:47] and I agree with

[00:20:47] that,

[00:20:48] you know,

[00:20:48] one or two

[00:20:48] really quality

[00:20:49] mics might be

[00:20:51] a better investment

[00:20:51] than a handful

[00:20:52] of mediocre.

[00:20:53] Even with like

[00:20:54] live music,

[00:20:56] like everybody

[00:20:57] sings in an SM58

[00:20:59] but I'll tell my

[00:21:00] friends like,

[00:21:00] hey,

[00:21:01] I've got a

[00:21:02] condenser

[00:21:03] Earthworks

[00:21:04] handheld mic,

[00:21:05] just try it,

[00:21:06] just try it.

[00:21:07] It's a $600,

[00:21:09] $700 mic,

[00:21:10] just try it.

[00:21:11] And they'll sing

[00:21:12] through it and

[00:21:12] they're like,

[00:21:13] oh my god,

[00:21:13] I've never heard

[00:21:14] my own voice

[00:21:15] like that before.

[00:21:17] This is amazing!

[00:21:19] And I don't like

[00:21:20] singing through

[00:21:21] SM58s anymore.

[00:21:22] I love singing

[00:21:24] through that

[00:21:25] Earthworks

[00:21:26] handheld mic.

[00:21:27] It's just,

[00:21:27] it's so beautiful.

[00:21:30] It's funny,

[00:21:31] but you know,

[00:21:32] this is a very

[00:21:33] interesting question

[00:21:33] because the whole

[00:21:34] issue of,

[00:21:35] particularly if you

[00:21:36] start getting a bit

[00:21:37] more established

[00:21:37] and you begin to

[00:21:38] have some budget

[00:21:39] to spend on

[00:21:39] microphones,

[00:21:40] you sometimes,

[00:21:41] I sometimes find

[00:21:42] myself getting

[00:21:43] in this position

[00:21:43] of thinking,

[00:21:44] you know,

[00:21:45] am I spoiling

[00:21:46] myself if I get

[00:21:46] microphones that

[00:21:47] are too expensive?

[00:21:48] And I'll bring

[00:21:49] that back to

[00:21:49] your example

[00:21:50] because you talk

[00:21:51] about this

[00:21:51] Earthworks mic

[00:21:52] and I've just

[00:21:54] been getting a

[00:21:55] little bit into

[00:21:55] live sound stuff

[00:21:57] because one of my

[00:21:58] is singing.

[00:22:01] And there's,

[00:22:02] it's a tricky one

[00:22:03] because you could

[00:22:03] kind of say,

[00:22:04] okay,

[00:22:04] well,

[00:22:04] if she gets used

[00:22:05] to singing

[00:22:06] with a really

[00:22:07] nice mic,

[00:22:09] actually,

[00:22:10] when she walks

[00:22:10] into most venues,

[00:22:11] she's going to

[00:22:11] end up singing

[00:22:12] to a 58.

[00:22:13] It's like,

[00:22:14] well,

[00:22:14] is it bad

[00:22:15] training to

[00:22:16] learn on an

[00:22:17] Earthworks

[00:22:17] and then have

[00:22:18] to use a 58?

[00:22:19] No,

[00:22:20] just have her

[00:22:20] bring her

[00:22:21] own mic.

[00:22:21] Oh,

[00:22:22] you reckon?

[00:22:23] Bring your

[00:22:24] own mic,

[00:22:24] just bring it

[00:22:25] and be like,

[00:22:25] hey,

[00:22:25] I've got a

[00:22:26] mic.

[00:22:27] I don't want

[00:22:27] to sing through

[00:22:28] your SM58.

[00:22:29] I've got my

[00:22:30] own mic.

[00:22:30] It needs

[00:22:31] phantom power

[00:22:32] and here you

[00:22:32] go.

[00:22:33] I mean,

[00:22:33] this has been

[00:22:34] my question

[00:22:34] for a lot

[00:22:35] of the recording

[00:22:36] courses that

[00:22:37] you can get

[00:22:37] at universities

[00:22:38] and stuff

[00:22:38] because a load

[00:22:39] of them have

[00:22:39] really,

[00:22:40] really nice

[00:22:41] gear,

[00:22:42] mics,

[00:22:43] rooms,

[00:22:44] the whole

[00:22:44] thing,

[00:22:45] and they train

[00:22:46] a whole bunch

[00:22:46] of students

[00:22:46] to get fabulous

[00:22:48] results in an

[00:22:48] acoustically treated

[00:22:49] room with a

[00:22:50] Steinway grand

[00:22:50] piano with

[00:22:52] U67s,

[00:22:52] and then

[00:22:53] you hand

[00:22:54] them a couple

[00:22:55] of 57s

[00:22:56] and a guitar

[00:22:56] amp in

[00:22:56] someone's

[00:22:56] rehearsal room

[00:22:57] and they're

[00:22:57] stuffed because

[00:22:58] they're not

[00:22:59] used to dealing

[00:22:59] with mics

[00:23:00] that are

[00:23:01] unforgiving

[00:23:01] and those

[00:23:02] kind of

[00:23:02] recordings

[00:23:02] that are

[00:23:03] unforgiving.

[00:23:04] It was a

[00:23:04] really good

[00:23:05] example of

[00:23:05] this for me.

[00:23:06] I did an

[00:23:06] AES student

[00:23:07] thing in

[00:23:07] Moscow and

[00:23:09] it had been,

[00:23:11] the actual

[00:23:13] university facility

[00:23:13] was very much

[00:23:14] like a home

[00:23:15] studio rehearsal

[00:23:15] room thing.

[00:23:16] There wasn't

[00:23:17] really much

[00:23:17] acoustic treatment.

[00:23:18] It was a bit

[00:23:19] kind of shonky

[00:23:20] really,

[00:23:20] but they

[00:23:22] had an

[00:23:23] endorsement

[00:23:24] with the

[00:23:24] local

[00:23:24] Sennheiser

[00:23:25] distributor

[00:23:25] who I

[00:23:26] swear

[00:23:28] shipped

[00:23:29] 50 grand's

[00:23:29] worth,

[00:23:29] I think,

[00:23:30] I would

[00:23:30] estimate,

[00:23:31] 50 grand's

[00:23:31] worth of

[00:23:32] box fresh

[00:23:33] Sennheiser

[00:23:33] and Neumann

[00:23:34] microphones.

[00:23:34] Top of

[00:23:34] the range

[00:23:35] stuff.

[00:23:37] And the

[00:23:38] other engineer,

[00:23:38] the guy I

[00:23:40] was doing

[00:23:40] this with,

[00:23:41] he pretty

[00:23:41] much just

[00:23:42] set the

[00:23:42] mics up

[00:23:42] by eye.

[00:23:43] And from

[00:23:44] my experience

[00:23:44] in Project

[00:23:44] Studios,

[00:23:45] I was like,

[00:23:45] this is going

[00:23:46] to be a

[00:23:46] car crash.

[00:23:47] I mean,

[00:23:47] we're going

[00:23:47] to be moving

[00:23:48] mics.

[00:23:48] It's going

[00:23:48] to be hard

[00:23:49] work.

[00:23:50] He just

[00:23:50] set the

[00:23:50] mics up

[00:23:51] by eye

[00:23:51] and they

[00:23:51] all sounded

[00:23:52] great.

[00:23:52] And we

[00:23:53] didn't need

[00:23:53] to move

[00:23:53] basically any

[00:23:54] of them.

[00:23:55] And I

[00:23:56] was amazed

[00:23:57] because I'm

[00:23:57] not used

[00:23:58] to dealing

[00:23:58] with a huge

[00:23:59] range of

[00:23:59] microphones

[00:23:59] like that.

[00:24:00] It was my

[00:24:01] environment

[00:24:02] but not my

[00:24:02] mics.

[00:24:03] And it

[00:24:03] was a

[00:24:03] really big

[00:24:04] illustration

[00:24:05] for me

[00:24:05] as to

[00:24:06] why,

[00:24:07] in a

[00:24:07] sense,

[00:24:08] sometimes

[00:24:08] getting people

[00:24:09] to learn

[00:24:09] with really

[00:24:09] good gear

[00:24:11] doesn't

[00:24:12] actually teach

[00:24:12] them to

[00:24:13] really work

[00:24:14] hard enough

[00:24:14] to learn

[00:24:16] actually how

[00:24:16] to do

[00:24:17] decent mic

[00:24:18] technique.

[00:24:19] I don't

[00:24:20] know,

[00:24:20] I've got

[00:24:20] off topic

[00:24:21] again.

[00:24:22] No,

[00:24:22] this is

[00:24:23] perfectly

[00:24:24] on topic.

[00:24:24] This is

[00:24:25] totally

[00:24:26] relevant.

[00:24:26] So are

[00:24:27] you saying

[00:24:27] that that's

[00:24:28] exactly the

[00:24:29] same setup

[00:24:29] in that

[00:24:30] room but

[00:24:31] with less

[00:24:31] good mics

[00:24:32] would have

[00:24:33] sounded

[00:24:33] terrible?

[00:24:34] Is that

[00:24:34] what your

[00:24:34] takeaway is?

[00:24:35] No,

[00:24:35] it's not

[00:24:36] that it

[00:24:36] would have

[00:24:36] sounded

[00:24:36] terrible

[00:24:37] but I

[00:24:37] know

[00:24:38] from

[00:24:38] experience

[00:24:38] having

[00:24:39] done

[00:24:39] exactly

[00:24:39] that

[00:24:40] kind

[00:24:40] of

[00:24:40] session

[00:24:40] with

[00:24:40] my

[00:24:41] kinds

[00:25:06] of

[00:25:06] was it.

[00:25:09] It's in the

[00:25:10] band called

[00:25:10] Brooks.

[00:25:12] It's a

[00:25:12] Russian

[00:25:12] language

[00:25:13] song.

[00:25:15] I can't

[00:25:16] remember what

[00:25:16] it's exactly

[00:25:17] called but

[00:25:17] you can look

[00:25:18] up in the

[00:25:18] multi-track

[00:25:19] library and

[00:25:19] listen to

[00:25:19] it.

[00:25:20] That was

[00:25:20] basically a

[00:25:21] project

[00:25:21] studio

[00:25:21] recording

[00:25:22] that was

[00:25:22] done with

[00:25:23] a whole

[00:25:23] bunch

[00:25:23] of really

[00:25:24] fantastic

[00:25:24] microphones.

[00:25:26] We'll

[00:25:26] link to

[00:25:26] it in

[00:25:27] the

[00:25:27] description

[00:25:28] for

[00:25:28] people to

[00:25:29] go and

[00:25:30] check that

[00:25:30] out and

[00:25:31] practice

[00:25:31] with it.

[00:25:32] That's

[00:25:32] great.

[00:25:33] So how

[00:25:34] do we

[00:25:34] equate

[00:25:34] the

[00:25:36] using

[00:25:37] of

[00:25:38] great

[00:25:39] microphone

[00:25:39] and gear

[00:25:40] where you

[00:25:40] don't have

[00:25:41] to work

[00:25:41] as hard

[00:25:41] at it

[00:25:42] to

[00:25:43] mixing

[00:25:43] with

[00:25:44] great

[00:25:44] tracks

[00:25:44] that you

[00:25:45] don't have

[00:25:45] to work

[00:25:47] as hard

[00:25:48] at it.

[00:25:49] Mixing

[00:25:49] when you

[00:25:50] have such

[00:25:50] great

[00:25:51] tracks.

[00:25:51] Sorry,

[00:25:51] repeat the

[00:25:51] question.

[00:25:52] I didn't

[00:25:52] quite get

[00:25:52] the beginning

[00:25:53] of that

[00:25:53] question.

[00:25:54] Excuse me.

[00:25:55] Sorry.

[00:25:55] So I was

[00:25:56] trying to

[00:25:56] compare

[00:25:56] the two

[00:25:59] topics

[00:25:59] that we

[00:25:59] were

[00:26:00] talking

[00:26:01] about

[00:26:02] where

[00:26:02] we've

[00:26:03] got

[00:26:03] really

[00:26:04] good

[00:26:04] microphones

[00:26:04] versus

[00:26:05] cheap

[00:26:06] microphones

[00:26:07] and you

[00:26:07] said you

[00:26:08] didn't have

[00:26:08] to work

[00:26:08] at it

[00:26:09] very hard

[00:26:10] to achieve

[00:26:11] the sound

[00:26:12] quality that

[00:26:13] you wanted.

[00:26:13] You didn't

[00:26:14] have to

[00:26:14] move the

[00:26:14] mics very

[00:26:14] much.

[00:26:15] How can

[00:26:16] we equate

[00:26:17] this to

[00:26:18] mixing

[00:26:19] where you've

[00:26:20] got a

[00:26:21] nice track

[00:26:22] of great

[00:26:22] recorded

[00:26:23] library

[00:26:24] to mix

[00:26:25] from

[00:26:26] versus

[00:26:26] really

[00:26:27] crappy

[00:26:27] tracks

[00:26:27] that you

[00:26:28] have to

[00:26:29] work hard

[00:26:29] at?

[00:26:32] You're

[00:26:33] making a

[00:26:34] very good

[00:26:35] parallel

[00:26:35] because it's

[00:26:36] absolutely

[00:26:36] the same.

[00:26:38] The difference

[00:26:39] between something

[00:26:40] that's been

[00:26:41] recorded with

[00:26:42] a view to

[00:26:42] the way the

[00:26:43] mix is going

[00:26:43] to turn out

[00:26:44] and something

[00:26:45] that hasn't

[00:26:46] been can

[00:26:47] be the

[00:26:47] difference

[00:26:48] between

[00:26:48] getting two

[00:26:50] or three

[00:26:50] or four

[00:26:50] mixes done

[00:26:51] in a day

[00:26:52] and it

[00:26:53] taking a

[00:26:54] solid week

[00:26:54] to do

[00:26:54] a mix.

[00:26:56] I've been

[00:26:57] in both

[00:26:57] those

[00:26:58] situations

[00:26:58] so I

[00:26:59] can speak

[00:26:59] from first

[00:27:00] hand experience

[00:27:00] there.

[00:27:02] If you

[00:27:03] record

[00:27:03] something

[00:27:05] sensibly

[00:27:06] and you're

[00:27:06] thinking with

[00:27:07] a mix in

[00:27:07] mind and

[00:27:08] if it's

[00:27:08] not something

[00:27:09] that's meant

[00:27:09] to be

[00:27:10] sounding

[00:27:10] unnatural

[00:27:10] and weird

[00:27:11] if you're

[00:27:12] recording

[00:27:12] a band

[00:27:12] to pretty

[00:27:13] much

[00:27:13] sound like

[00:27:13] itself

[00:27:14] and to

[00:27:14] try and

[00:27:15] make it

[00:27:15] sound

[00:27:15] good

[00:27:16] if you

[00:27:17] record

[00:27:17] it in

[00:27:17] the

[00:27:17] right

[00:27:17] way

[00:27:18] it

[00:27:19] should

[00:27:19] pretty

[00:27:20] much

[00:27:20] mix

[00:27:20] itself

[00:27:22] and you

[00:27:22] can do

[00:27:23] it

[00:27:23] but it

[00:27:23] just means

[00:27:24] that it

[00:27:24] front loads

[00:27:25] the work

[00:27:26] it's

[00:27:26] better

[00:27:26] that way

[00:27:27] because

[00:27:27] honestly

[00:27:28] it's

[00:27:28] so much

[00:27:29] quicker

[00:27:30] making

[00:27:30] records

[00:27:30] that way

[00:27:31] I love

[00:27:31] making

[00:27:32] records

[00:27:32] that way

[00:27:33] and yet

[00:27:33] most people

[00:27:33] don't

[00:27:35] because it's

[00:27:36] so much

[00:27:36] quicker and

[00:27:36] easier and

[00:27:37] more enjoyable

[00:27:37] and yeah

[00:27:38] everyone has

[00:27:38] more fun

[00:27:40] well that

[00:27:41] that kind

[00:27:41] of brings

[00:27:42] me back

[00:27:43] to the

[00:27:43] point you

[00:27:43] were making

[00:27:44] with your

[00:27:44] daughter

[00:27:44] and you

[00:27:46] know her

[00:27:46] singing into

[00:27:47] more expensive

[00:27:47] microphones

[00:27:48] and you're

[00:27:49] worried that

[00:27:49] you know

[00:27:50] she's going to

[00:27:50] walk into

[00:27:50] a venue

[00:27:51] and be

[00:27:52] presented with

[00:27:52] your

[00:27:53] standard issue

[00:27:54] sm58

[00:27:55] and you

[00:27:55] know

[00:27:56] is

[00:27:56] did you

[00:27:56] did you

[00:27:57] prep her

[00:27:58] properly

[00:27:58] and is

[00:27:59] she gonna

[00:27:59] be able to

[00:28:00] handle that

[00:28:00] situation

[00:28:00] and my

[00:28:01] opinion is

[00:28:02] yes

[00:28:02] because a

[00:28:04] a good

[00:28:05] singer

[00:28:05] someone who

[00:28:06] knows their

[00:28:07] voice

[00:28:07] someone who

[00:28:08] knows how

[00:28:09] to perform

[00:28:10] into the

[00:28:11] microphone

[00:28:11] you know

[00:28:12] top quality

[00:28:13] or not

[00:28:13] but a top

[00:28:15] quality microphone

[00:28:16] is going to

[00:28:17] give her

[00:28:18] the feedback

[00:28:18] that she

[00:28:19] needs to

[00:28:20] react

[00:28:20] pull

[00:28:21] herself

[00:28:22] back

[00:28:22] from the

[00:28:22] mic

[00:28:23] when she's

[00:28:23] belting

[00:28:24] it out

[00:28:24] and get

[00:28:25] in closer

[00:28:25] when it's

[00:28:26] an intimate

[00:28:27] passage

[00:28:27] and that

[00:28:29] is playing

[00:28:30] you know

[00:28:31] that is

[00:28:31] playing the

[00:28:31] instrument

[00:28:32] right

[00:28:32] that's

[00:28:32] playing your

[00:28:32] instrument

[00:28:33] into the

[00:28:33] microphone

[00:28:34] and be

[00:28:35] presented

[00:28:35] with a

[00:28:36] 58

[00:28:36] I'm pretty

[00:28:37] sure that

[00:28:37] she's gonna

[00:28:38] know exactly

[00:28:38] what to

[00:28:39] do

[00:28:39] and how to

[00:28:40] handle that

[00:28:41] situation

[00:28:42] so I

[00:28:42] think that

[00:28:43] that is

[00:28:43] the right

[00:28:44] approach

[00:28:45] a good

[00:28:46] approach

[00:28:46] maybe not

[00:28:46] the only

[00:28:46] approach

[00:28:47] but that

[00:28:48] is a

[00:28:48] very good

[00:28:48] approach

[00:28:49] in you

[00:28:50] know how

[00:28:51] to

[00:28:53] utilize

[00:28:53] top quality

[00:28:54] equipment

[00:28:55] and

[00:28:56] I think

[00:28:57] you know

[00:28:58] you'll be able

[00:28:58] to handle

[00:28:58] yourself

[00:28:59] in just

[00:28:59] about any

[00:29:00] situation

[00:29:00] I also

[00:29:02] will say

[00:29:02] that like

[00:29:02] I've

[00:29:03] played

[00:29:04] in a

[00:29:04] couple

[00:29:04] of

[00:29:05] festivals

[00:29:06] and stuff

[00:29:07] where like

[00:29:07] they've got

[00:29:07] the mics

[00:29:08] already set

[00:29:08] up you

[00:29:08] get up

[00:29:09] there

[00:29:09] and

[00:29:09] you

[00:29:09] sing

[00:29:10] and

[00:29:11] if you

[00:29:12] have a

[00:29:12] great

[00:29:13] mix

[00:29:13] engineer

[00:29:13] that

[00:29:14] can

[00:29:14] give

[00:29:14] you

[00:29:15] what

[00:29:15] you

[00:29:15] need

[00:29:15] to

[00:29:15] hear

[00:29:16] in

[00:29:16] the

[00:29:16] monitor

[00:29:17] on the

[00:29:18] floor

[00:29:18] wedge

[00:29:18] then

[00:29:20] it's

[00:29:20] good

[00:29:21] you're

[00:29:21] good

[00:29:21] to go

[00:29:22] you can

[00:29:22] hear

[00:29:22] yourself

[00:29:23] it is

[00:29:23] nicer

[00:29:23] to sing

[00:29:24] through

[00:29:24] your

[00:29:24] own

[00:29:24] microphone

[00:29:25] but

[00:29:25] you know

[00:29:26] in certain

[00:29:27] situations

[00:29:27] you don't

[00:29:28] have

[00:29:28] that

[00:29:28] choice

[00:29:28] but

[00:29:29] if

[00:29:29] you

[00:29:29] have

[00:29:29] a

[00:29:29] good

[00:29:30] mix

[00:29:30] engineer

[00:29:30] that's

[00:29:31] there

[00:29:31] and

[00:29:32] is

[00:29:32] working

[00:29:33] with

[00:29:33] you

[00:29:33] and

[00:29:34] is

[00:29:34] always

[00:29:34] up

[00:29:35] there

[00:29:35] on stage

[00:29:35] like

[00:29:35] hey

[00:29:36] do

[00:29:36] you

[00:29:36] need

[00:29:36] it

[00:29:36] up

[00:29:37] do

[00:29:37] you

[00:29:37] need

[00:29:37] it

[00:29:37] down

[00:29:37] do

[00:29:37] you

[00:29:37] need

[00:29:38] more

[00:29:38] clarity

[00:29:39] what

[00:29:39] do

[00:29:39] you

[00:29:39] need

[00:29:40] and

[00:29:41] that

[00:29:41] works

[00:29:42] I mean

[00:29:43] that's

[00:29:43] one of the

[00:29:43] fundamental

[00:29:44] truisms

[00:29:44] of audio

[00:29:45] isn't it

[00:29:46] you'll only

[00:29:47] do your

[00:29:47] best work

[00:29:47] when you

[00:29:48] can hear

[00:29:48] what you're

[00:29:48] doing

[00:29:48] yeah

[00:29:49] absolutely

[00:30:03] as a

[00:30:04] make

[00:30:04] so you

[00:30:04] can hear

[00:30:05] what the

[00:30:05] bass

[00:30:05] guitarist

[00:30:06] is

[00:30:06] playing

[00:30:06] without

[00:30:06] pointing

[00:30:07] a

[00:30:07] bass

[00:30:07] guitar

[00:30:07] speaker

[00:30:08] at

[00:30:08] you

[00:30:08] is

[00:30:09] yeah

[00:30:10] yeah

[00:30:10] I'd imagine

[00:30:11] it's better

[00:30:12] today

[00:30:12] with decent

[00:30:13] monitoring

[00:30:13] systems

[00:30:14] and in-ears

[00:30:14] but

[00:30:15] no

[00:30:15] no

[00:30:16] no

[00:30:16] okay

[00:30:18] and this

[00:30:18] is

[00:30:19] hysterical

[00:30:19] for me

[00:30:20] because

[00:30:21] I'm an

[00:30:21] absolute

[00:30:22] baby

[00:30:22] in anything

[00:30:23] to do

[00:30:23] with

[00:30:23] live

[00:30:23] sound

[00:30:23] I mean

[00:30:24] I've

[00:30:24] done

[00:30:24] lots

[00:30:25] of

[00:30:25] live

[00:30:25] performance

[00:30:25] but

[00:30:26] more

[00:30:26] in

[00:30:26] an

[00:30:26] acoustic

[00:30:27] situation

[00:30:28] as a

[00:30:28] singer

[00:30:28] and as

[00:30:28] an

[00:30:29] instrumental

[00:30:29] player

[00:30:30] but

[00:30:31] recently

[00:30:32] because

[00:30:32] of just

[00:30:33] following

[00:30:33] my

[00:30:34] daughter

[00:30:34] around

[00:30:35] various

[00:30:35] open

[00:30:35] mic

[00:30:35] nights

[00:30:35] and things

[00:30:36] I've

[00:30:36] taken up

[00:30:37] bass

[00:30:37] guitar

[00:30:37] and

[00:30:38] have

[00:30:38] been

[00:30:39] performing

[00:30:39] with her

[00:30:40] on stage

[00:30:40] just accompanying

[00:30:40] her

[00:30:41] so she's

[00:30:42] got someone

[00:30:42] to accompany

[00:30:42] her a lot

[00:30:43] of the time

[00:30:43] keys

[00:30:44] and bass

[00:30:44] guitar

[00:30:45] and

[00:30:45] so it's

[00:30:46] my first

[00:30:46] experience

[00:30:47] of having

[00:30:48] to deal

[00:30:49] with

[00:30:49] monitoring

[00:30:50] situations

[00:30:51] and this

[00:30:51] kind of

[00:30:51] stuff

[00:30:51] and

[00:30:52] honestly

[00:30:52] it's

[00:30:53] an

[00:30:53] absolute

[00:30:54] I feel

[00:30:55] so

[00:30:56] self-conscious

[00:30:56] about it

[00:30:56] because

[00:30:57] it's

[00:30:58] not

[00:30:58] my

[00:30:58] field

[00:30:58] I

[00:30:59] really

[00:30:59] don't

[00:30:59] know

[00:30:59] very

[00:31:00] much

[00:31:00] about

[00:31:00] it

[00:31:00] at

[00:31:00] all

[00:31:00] and

[00:31:00] yet

[00:31:01] I

[00:31:01] so

[00:31:01] often

[00:31:01] find myself

[00:31:02] scratching

[00:31:02] my head

[00:31:03] and going

[00:31:04] is it

[00:31:04] just me

[00:31:05] who can't

[00:31:06] hear the

[00:31:06] bass

[00:31:06] is it

[00:31:06] just me

[00:31:07] who

[00:31:07] you know

[00:31:08] does anyone

[00:31:09] else have a

[00:31:10] problem

[00:31:10] with the fact

[00:31:10] that the

[00:31:11] sound

[00:31:12] engineer

[00:31:12] has

[00:31:13] has

[00:31:13] clearly

[00:31:13] not

[00:31:13] switched

[00:31:14] on

[00:31:14] the

[00:31:14] bass

[00:31:14] mic

[00:31:14] and

[00:31:15] is

[00:31:15] eating

[00:31:16] a

[00:31:16] sandwich

[00:31:18] so

[00:31:19] I do

[00:31:20] a lot

[00:31:20] of

[00:31:21] biting

[00:31:21] my

[00:31:21] lip

[00:31:21] if you

[00:31:22] can

[00:31:22] see

[00:31:22] the

[00:31:22] scars

[00:31:23] around

[00:31:23] my head

[00:31:24] being able

[00:31:25] to hear

[00:31:26] your

[00:31:27] instrument

[00:31:27] or your

[00:31:28] voice

[00:31:28] live

[00:31:29] music

[00:31:29] wise

[00:31:30] is

[00:31:31] super

[00:31:31] important

[00:31:32] and

[00:31:32] even

[00:31:33] the guys

[00:31:34] in this

[00:31:35] area

[00:31:35] that do

[00:31:36] live

[00:31:36] music

[00:31:36] and they're

[00:31:37] solo

[00:31:37] artists

[00:31:38] and they

[00:31:38] have their

[00:31:39] speaker

[00:31:39] and they

[00:31:39] usually

[00:31:40] have it

[00:31:40] in front

[00:31:40] of them

[00:31:40] or off

[00:31:41] to the

[00:31:41] side

[00:31:41] and I'm

[00:31:41] like

[00:31:42] can you

[00:31:42] really

[00:31:42] hear

[00:31:43] yourself

[00:31:43] and sometimes

[00:31:43] they'll ask

[00:31:44] me to come

[00:31:44] up and sing

[00:31:45] on a song

[00:31:46] and I'm

[00:31:47] like you

[00:31:47] have this

[00:31:48] all-in-one

[00:31:49] system

[00:31:49] really cool

[00:31:51] but it's

[00:31:51] off to the

[00:31:52] side

[00:31:52] you can't

[00:31:52] hear

[00:31:53] I can't

[00:31:53] hear

[00:31:53] myself

[00:31:54] saying

[00:31:55] how do

[00:31:55] you perform

[00:31:56] night after

[00:31:56] night

[00:31:57] and they're

[00:31:58] like it's

[00:31:59] fine

[00:31:59] and they got

[00:31:59] so used

[00:32:00] to it

[00:32:00] like that

[00:32:01] and then I

[00:32:01] said try

[00:32:02] some

[00:32:02] in-ear

[00:32:02] monitors

[00:32:03] or try

[00:32:03] just adding

[00:32:04] an extra

[00:32:04] speaker

[00:32:05] pointed at

[00:32:06] you

[00:32:06] just so

[00:32:07] you can

[00:32:07] hear

[00:32:07] yourself

[00:32:08] and usually

[00:32:09] when I say

[00:32:09] that

[00:32:10] there's a little

[00:32:11] pushback

[00:32:11] like I like

[00:32:12] my setup

[00:32:12] but then

[00:32:13] when they

[00:32:13] try it

[00:32:14] they're like

[00:32:15] oh my god

[00:32:15] that's

[00:32:15] ridiculous

[00:32:16] now I

[00:32:16] can hear

[00:32:17] myself

[00:32:17] now I

[00:32:17] feel like

[00:32:17] I could

[00:32:19] perform

[00:32:19] anywhere

[00:32:20] and it's

[00:32:21] made my

[00:32:22] performances

[00:32:22] that much

[00:32:23] better

[00:32:23] I'm not

[00:32:23] straining

[00:32:25] my voice

[00:32:25] that's another

[00:32:26] thing

[00:32:26] if you're

[00:32:27] recording

[00:32:28] somebody

[00:32:28] even

[00:32:28] or if

[00:32:30] you're

[00:32:30] doing

[00:32:31] live music

[00:32:31] it doesn't

[00:32:31] matter

[00:32:32] if you

[00:32:32] can't

[00:32:32] hear

[00:32:32] yourself

[00:32:33] you're

[00:32:33] going

[00:32:33] to strain

[00:32:34] your voice

[00:32:35] you're

[00:32:35] going

[00:32:35] to sing

[00:32:36] louder

[00:32:36] and it's

[00:32:37] not going

[00:32:37] to be

[00:32:38] good

[00:32:38] at the

[00:32:38] end of

[00:32:38] a three

[00:32:39] hour

[00:32:39] show

[00:32:39] you're

[00:32:40] going

[00:32:40] to

[00:32:40] sound

[00:32:41] like

[00:32:41] I

[00:32:41] sound

[00:32:41] right

[00:32:41] now

[00:32:42] and that's

[00:32:43] going to

[00:32:43] introduce

[00:32:43] pitch

[00:32:44] issues

[00:32:44] too

[00:32:45] because

[00:32:45] if

[00:32:45] you

[00:32:45] can't

[00:32:45] hear

[00:32:45] yourself

[00:32:46] you

[00:32:46] can't

[00:32:46] sing

[00:32:46] in

[00:32:46] tune

[00:32:47] right

[00:32:48] and

[00:32:48] so

[00:32:49] that's

[00:32:49] that's

[00:32:50] critical

[00:32:51] now you

[00:32:51] brought up

[00:32:52] something

[00:32:52] there

[00:32:52] Neil

[00:32:52] that I'm

[00:33:21] quite

[00:33:23] time

[00:33:24] and it

[00:33:24] just

[00:33:24] turned

[00:33:24] out

[00:33:24] we

[00:33:25] had

[00:33:25] to

[00:33:25] change

[00:33:25] out

[00:33:26] the

[00:33:26] mic

[00:33:26] we

[00:33:26] changed

[00:33:26] out

[00:33:26] the

[00:33:27] mic

[00:33:27] and

[00:33:28] we

[00:33:29] got

[00:33:30] the

[00:33:30] punch

[00:33:30] that

[00:33:30] we

[00:33:30] needed

[00:33:31] we

[00:33:31] were

[00:33:31] able

[00:33:32] to

[00:33:32] EQ

[00:33:32] it

[00:33:32] because

[00:33:33] the

[00:33:33] EQ

[00:33:33] curve

[00:33:33] that

[00:33:33] we

[00:33:34] were

[00:33:34] using

[00:33:34] just

[00:33:35] looked

[00:33:35] ridiculous

[00:33:36] and

[00:33:37] it

[00:33:37] wasn't

[00:33:38] working

[00:33:38] and

[00:33:38] it

[00:33:40] didn't

[00:33:40] have

[00:33:40] the

[00:33:40] punch

[00:33:41] it

[00:33:41] had

[00:33:41] the

[00:33:41] thump

[00:33:41] but

[00:33:41] it

[00:33:42] didn't

[00:33:42] have

[00:33:42] the

[00:33:42] punch

[00:33:42] and

[00:33:42] no

[00:33:42] matter

[00:33:43] where

[00:33:43] we

[00:33:43] moved

[00:33:43] it

[00:33:43] so

[00:33:44] we

[00:33:44] changed

[00:33:44] out

[00:33:44] the

[00:33:45] mic

[00:33:45] and

[00:33:46] mic

[00:33:46] placement

[00:33:46] matters

[00:33:47] live

[00:33:48] too

[00:33:48] yeah

[00:33:49] yeah

[00:33:49] absolutely

[00:33:50] that's

[00:33:50] another

[00:33:50] interesting

[00:33:51] question

[00:33:51] you just

[00:33:51] brought

[00:33:51] it up

[00:33:52] about

[00:33:52] EQ

[00:33:52] I'm

[00:33:53] interviewing

[00:33:53] you

[00:33:53] now

[00:33:54] rather than

[00:33:54] the other

[00:33:54] way

[00:33:54] around

[00:33:57] turn

[00:33:58] the

[00:33:58] side

[00:33:59] tracking

[00:34:00] technique

[00:34:01] the

[00:34:02] issue

[00:34:03] of

[00:34:03] when I

[00:34:04] do

[00:34:04] recording

[00:34:04] myself

[00:34:05] I

[00:34:06] almost

[00:34:07] I

[00:34:07] try

[00:34:08] if at

[00:34:08] all

[00:34:08] possible

[00:34:09] not

[00:34:09] to

[00:34:09] use

[00:34:09] any

[00:34:09] EQ

[00:34:10] and

[00:34:11] I

[00:34:11] find

[00:34:11] that

[00:34:11] in

[00:34:12] general

[00:34:12] that

[00:34:13] makes

[00:34:13] me

[00:34:13] work

[00:34:13] harder

[00:34:13] with

[00:34:14] my

[00:34:14] microphone

[00:34:14] position

[00:34:14] and

[00:34:14] mic

[00:34:14] choices

[00:34:15] and

[00:34:15] gets

[00:34:15] me

[00:34:15] better

[00:34:16] results

[00:34:17] and

[00:34:17] I

[00:34:18] spoke

[00:34:19] to

[00:34:19] one

[00:34:19] live

[00:34:20] engineer

[00:34:20] who

[00:34:20] was

[00:34:21] kind

[00:34:22] of

[00:34:22] positing

[00:34:22] the

[00:34:22] same

[00:34:22] thing

[00:34:22] and

[00:34:23] saying

[00:34:23] actually

[00:34:23] the

[00:34:23] best

[00:34:24] way

[00:34:24] to

[00:34:24] get

[00:34:24] decent

[00:34:25] results

[00:34:26] live

[00:34:27] is

[00:34:27] to

[00:34:34] you

[00:34:34] have

[00:34:36] to

[00:34:36] work

[00:34:36] to

[00:34:37] what

[00:34:37] you

[00:34:37] got

[00:34:38] you

[00:34:40] try

[00:34:42] not

[00:34:43] especially

[00:34:43] the

[00:34:44] crazy

[00:34:44] EQ

[00:34:44] curves

[00:34:45] like

[00:34:45] that

[00:34:46] engineer

[00:34:46] had

[00:34:47] he

[00:34:47] wasn't

[00:34:48] that

[00:34:48] experienced

[00:34:48] but

[00:34:49] the

[00:34:49] church

[00:34:49] was

[00:34:49] like

[00:34:49] he

[00:34:50] knows

[00:34:50] how

[00:34:50] to

[00:34:50] do

[00:34:50] it

[00:34:50] right

[00:34:51] so

[00:34:51] they

[00:34:51] let

[00:34:52] him

[00:34:52] do

[00:34:52] it

[00:34:52] and

[00:34:53] the

[00:34:54] EQ

[00:34:54] curve

[00:34:54] that

[00:34:54] he

[00:34:54] had

[00:34:55] like

[00:34:56] I

[00:34:56] took

[00:34:56] it

[00:34:56] off

[00:34:57] but

[00:34:57] it

[00:35:05] that worked but yeah the like even um my live rig i try not the only way reason that i would have

[00:35:13] eq curves is for um high pass filters things like that uh because you want to get rid of some because

[00:35:20] i got some subs you don't want the rumble and muddiness from that um you want maybe a notch

[00:35:27] if you know that that guitar um feedbacks through the mics you know it's live music so yeah if you

[00:35:37] know that that's where the the mic usually picks up the guitar and feedbacks you want to notch that

[00:35:42] out a little bit and then sometimes it's just tone shaping on a on a bit on like my bass guitarist

[00:35:48] um he's got a bass and sometimes he'll switch it to a different pickup and when he does like

[00:35:55] there's always just a little annoying um frequency at a certain point so i just

[00:36:00] between about 20 hertz and 20 kilohertz i think yes somewhere there

[00:36:07] i've played a few of those yeah starting out so as somebody who's beginning uh this this journey of

[00:36:14] recording whether it's in the studio or live doesn't i don't think it really matters um you know

[00:36:20] there's a lot of of tutorials out there youtube videos where a microphone is set up in front of a

[00:36:26] guitar speaker or a drum set or a vocalist whatever it is and they go back to their dawg they

[00:36:32] bring up the fader they check the level what's the first thing that they end up reaching for

[00:36:36] an eq right and they're like okay let's let's mess with this eq now let's do the work now let's do the

[00:36:43] work right but i think that i think that that there's there's something wrong with that picture

[00:36:49] because what maybe we're not seeing or maybe what we're not being shown is the microphone placement

[00:36:56] and the microphone that's being used is the first eq that's happening in the recording chain right it's

[00:37:03] not the parametric eq that you can you know surgically split and do all this crazy crap with it's where is

[00:37:12] your microphone relative to the source what microphone is it that is your very first eq curve

[00:37:18] that you're applying and if you're not getting the sound that you're hoping for maybe don't reach

[00:37:23] for an eq maybe reach for another microphone maybe put that microphone somewhere else i mean again i

[00:37:29] think the the the like vocal close micing thing is is really responsible for a lot of that problem

[00:37:33] because you can get away with that if you've got a dry vocal in front of a microphone what people

[00:37:38] aren't thinking about is that if if they try and put that situation then into a into a recording

[00:37:44] session where you've got a whole band in there you may want to eq your cymbal mic so that it's got

[00:37:49] all those frequencies in it and take a bunch of frequencies out or whatever else not thinking

[00:37:53] about the fact that it's a whole bunch of sound from all the other instruments coming through

[00:37:57] that you're then giving this incredibly like hilly weird response to so all the spill on that microphone

[00:38:02] is going to sound horrible so again this is one of the reasons why i've come back to this thing of

[00:38:06] using microphones without eq because it tends to make the spill from everything else which is a huge part of

[00:38:14] any kind of ensemble even if it's an ensemble as small as you know a guitarist singing while they're

[00:38:19] playing guitar or uh or just a drum kit which is a kind of an ensemble the moment you start eq in

[00:38:24] all the stuff then all the spill goes out the window as well is all the unintended consequences well we

[00:38:30] can get really nerdy with you know phase relationships within eq right you know and that that can really

[00:38:37] especially with miking up a drum kit and this is kind of where i wanted to go is is you know ben you're a

[00:38:42] drummer and you know well and we all know but you know as a drummer the uh the joys and and and tears

[00:38:52] of you know miking up a drum kit and getting a sound out of it and i know that primarily in your studio

[00:38:58] you have an electric drum set like i do now set yeah right yeah because it takes away all that headache

[00:39:03] it takes away yeah so there we go but you know miking up a drum kit is still standard practice right

[00:39:11] yeah that is still what we do and microphone placement is a huge question right because there's tons of

[00:39:19] techniques there's sticking every single microphone anywhere you anywhere there's space right you know

[00:39:25] screw the drummer stick it right there where the drummer sits and let's capture a great or hits which

[00:39:30] is or or hits right you know one thing just put the microphone right where my stick wants to go

[00:39:35] hopefully you didn't want to hang on to that microphone because it's not going to be a microphone

[00:39:38] after this session um there are an awful lot of chipped sm57s yeah yeah exactly you know there's

[00:39:46] tons of techniques that you could go into recording a drum set you know the mono overhead uh the glenn

[00:39:54] johns method recorder man you know sticking a mid-side configuration or an xy configuration in front of it

[00:40:01] there's tons of different options what what has been your guys's experience with something like that do

[00:40:08] you typically find that less is more or is more a better way to go because then you can decide what

[00:40:17] you don't want to include when it comes into the final you know mixing phase because certainly if you

[00:40:22] don't set up the microphone you don't have a track to mix right so if you just set up two mics

[00:40:28] that's all you're going to have but if you set up 30 mics well you've made yourself a nice long

[00:40:33] weekend of mixing and chopping and editing for yourself so what's the what's the better

[00:40:39] probably bored the drummer to death too yeah that's 20 minutes turned into two hours right

[00:40:45] you know i mean that was one of the questions i wanted to really sort of raise with mike today is

[00:40:49] that i mean i've been relatively lucky in where i've recorded actual live drums so yeah nate's

[00:40:55] right here here i don't want a full acoustic kit mic'd up here anymore they're too loud it's too hard

[00:41:00] so but i've been relatively lucky and recorded in some really nice studios and one of the things that

[00:41:05] always surprised me was how few microphones they tend to use to record kits well i remember the first

[00:41:12] time i walked into a what you'd call a top flight studio and i think they had they had four four mics

[00:41:19] to record the kit and that included a room mic and i was like wow how on earth are you going to

[00:41:26] record the entire kit they had like a snare mic a kit mic a mic for the rest of the kit and then a room

[00:41:33] mic and i was like well that's this is going to be awful sounded incredible i'm not on the not only

[00:41:37] that it sounded massive and i have and that was the day that i sort of was like okay the bit i didn't

[00:41:44] know then obviously because i was much younger is that's because these guys know what they're doing

[00:41:48] and they have done it before in that room and yes i mean the in that room bit is the crucial bit

[00:41:54] i mean this again people say oh why should i bother going into a commercial studio i mean i've got all

[00:41:59] that gear myself i can do it my own room even if the commercial studio doesn't have that much better

[00:42:04] gear than yours the difference is that they've been using that room multiple times with lots of

[00:42:10] different bands and every single session they've tweaked something and thought does that sound any

[00:42:13] better and you get the cumulative effect of maybe decades of them doing that and so it may look to

[00:42:19] you like you walk in and they go yeah put the drums there we'll put the mic there and it may look like

[00:42:23] they're not thinking about it like they're working to some kind of a template again there's lots of

[00:42:26] misleading stuff you can learn by by watching people who do this stuff professionally and you might

[00:42:31] think oh well it's all it's all a template i can just put that template in my studio it's like no

[00:42:34] it's not a template that thing has developed over 20 years of them moving things around and trying

[00:42:38] different stuff they know it works because they've tried all the other options right so it's the kind

[00:42:44] of inverse it's the negative space left by all the things that sound not as good yeah they've learned

[00:42:49] from everything they've done wrong that you haven't it's funny nate and nate myself and neil have talked

[00:42:53] about this before when we were all together the bit that we hate i think i speak for all of us on

[00:42:57] youtube videos is they show you what they did they don't show you why they did it and the reason that

[00:43:05] they did that is because as you say for the past 10 years they've learned not to put the guitar cab mic

[00:43:10] there because it sounds terrible they just go you put the mic here and you're like oh well that's

[00:43:14] where you put it then and it's like yeah you have no context as to why you're putting it yeah yeah and

[00:43:19] and it's and there's so many questions that usually unanswered i mean i it's one of my big bugbears the

[00:43:24] whole recording templates thing is and because it so rarely do you even get enough context to decide

[00:43:31] whether that's a a template that you might find useful to follow you know it doesn't it's using

[00:43:38] different gear than yours different budget different genre different acoustics um you know different

[00:43:42] musician different instrument and it's like well how actually am i supposed to tell whether this

[00:43:49] bears any relationship to the gear and equipment and acoustics and people that i've got recording for

[00:43:55] me and so it's like it's i i i would rather teach people about about kind of general principles of mic

[00:44:05] technique and then how to apply those to specific specific situations um than try and provide

[00:44:11] templates i mean i've got a lot of flack for it a lot of people have criticized my mixing and

[00:44:16] recording books for not providing you know a box that says here's how you record a gusty guitar or

[00:44:22] here's how you um eq a triangle you know it's impossible for me to do that in good faith because

[00:44:29] because of that problem and yet unfortunately it's such an easy myth to sell that probably when they do

[00:44:38] the video of like here's how you create massive drums with three mics they're going to get

[00:44:43] many more clicks and much more interaction than they will for the one where they say

[00:44:47] well actually it all depends yeah it's the kind of boring that's not as exciting is not gonna not

[00:44:54] gonna get you so unfortunately that that that generates this kind of mushroom effect on on

[00:45:02] on youtube of these kinds of things popping up everywhere and yeah unfortunately being misleading

[00:45:07] some of the very worst recordings i've i've ever had to mix have been a result of people following

[00:45:14] micing templates just really a horrible awful things and just not even thinking what why they're doing

[00:45:20] it or listening to what the outcome is and just assuming oh well if i put the mics in those positions

[00:45:25] that's the professional way of doing it it's like no it's actually gonna sound any good yeah yeah

[00:45:31] that's the same thing like recording recording acoustic guitar like you oh yeah here just put it at

[00:45:37] the at the near the 12th fret uh facing the sound hole and it's like okay i've tried that oh that's

[00:45:42] too boomy uh with with at this distance from the mic this but you also got to take into consideration

[00:45:47] the guitar you're working with the the the room you're in the the mic you're using and the person who's

[00:45:56] playing is he moving while he's playing acoustic guitar you know because that'll mess up your your

[00:46:01] whole recording right there so yeah the template part i i completely agree with you it's like hey here's

[00:46:07] some techniques that you could use uh try them yeah and in fact actually the the video you you very

[00:46:13] rarely see is the one that will be really helpful which is the video that says okay you've looked at

[00:46:20] some template or you've got some vague idea in fact it's what we all do as recording engineers when we

[00:46:24] plan a session we don't go into a session and build everything from scratch you just don't have

[00:46:28] time it was same live of course but it's like you you plan it out in your head in advance you go well

[00:46:33] this is my experience this is where i think it's probably going to sound good and you basically

[00:46:37] estimate the whole thing guess the whole thing to start with educated guesswork so that you don't

[00:46:41] have to then build everything from first principles but then when you get in there the really important

[00:46:46] thing is not the guess that you took the important thing is how you reacted to how it sounded then

[00:46:51] and what you did with it so i'm whenever i'm writing about like recording things or micing things

[00:46:56] i'm always trying to write about the bit after that first mic choice it's like yes i put a 57 on the

[00:47:03] snare but then when i heard it it sounded like this and so that made me think okay well that i suspect

[00:47:07] there's too much proximity effect on it or this is the wrong mic or he's hitting it in a different

[00:47:12] place or oh i i need to get more under snare on it i need to add another microphone in it's it's that

[00:47:17] thought process that is the recording thing not which mic you put up and and the thing is that

[00:47:22] actually in project studios particularly where the mics are so unforgiving and the acoustics are so

[00:47:26] weird and all this kind of stuff if you work from first principles you'll often find yourself

[00:47:30] doing recording setups that you won't read about anywhere but have come up organically by the

[00:47:37] nature of the situation you're in like i just off the top of my head an example with drums i remember

[00:47:43] one of the best drum sounds i've ever got was where i was recording in a really small like project studio

[00:47:47] thing where the room was over deadened and also we were just trying to make it a really dry kind of

[00:47:56] funky sound so we were just padding everything and when i put the overheads up they sounded really thin

[00:48:03] and not very impressive because of course most of a drum sound overheads is reflections yeah and so i

[00:48:09] thought well okay they're working from first principles it means that i'm not getting as much

[00:48:13] of the sound of the kit coming through my overheads as i would normally because i'm not getting the

[00:48:17] reflections so i'll put up a second pair of overheads to pick up another set of reflections

[00:48:20] and combine those together now i i challenge you to say you've ever seen a youtube video that says

[00:48:26] put up two sets of overheads but it sounded brilliant but it was just because of that specific

[00:48:31] scenario where i was just listening to it and going well this sounds thin it clearly needs more more

[00:48:37] frequency information let's put up some more microphones so in that setup you had a set of

[00:48:42] overheads probably placed pretty standard right so then your second set of overheads were they further

[00:48:48] back were they higher well i mean normally when i do overheads if i'm if i'm doing drums

[00:48:53] to work quickly i don't usually have microphones in the traditional overheads place placement okay i

[00:48:59] usually have them around about the drummer's shoulders because the quickest way to record drums

[00:49:04] the kind of cheat way of doing it is to try and get a the stereo pickup that sounds pretty much

[00:49:10] like the full drum kit and you can't do that over the cymbals you'll get something that's all cymbals

[00:49:14] and dull drum ambience which if you stick it by the drummer's shoulders you'll get pretty much what

[00:49:20] the drummer hears that's what they're balancing and you'll get a decent blend of cymbals and drum

[00:49:24] ambience and then you can then it put takes all the stress off all your close mics because you're not

[00:49:28] trying to get the whole snare sound out of a close mic you can just use the the close mic to bring

[00:49:33] it a bit forward in the mix and give it an extra punch or whatever it is you need and so in that

[00:49:38] situation i had that kind of overhead microphone setup i seem to remember and then i thought well i'm

[00:49:42] kind of getting it from the drummer's side i'm not getting any reflections from the other side of

[00:49:46] the kit i'll put the other overheads on the other side of the kit and i think i i don't know put a

[00:49:50] cross pair or something out the front of the kit pointing back towards the pointing back towards

[00:49:55] the drummer again this is most of most of the sessions that i do not most of them but a lot of

[00:50:00] the sessions i do you can read about so it's actually there's a session notes column about it that

[00:50:04] i did for the for the magazine that has you know you can listen to the orchestra in fact you can

[00:50:07] even listen you can get the multi-tracks never listen wow i mean that's um i think that's the

[00:50:13] bit that you get you you touched on earlier about why you should still why why are studios still

[00:50:19] relevant right why are recording studios if everyone can record at home for me have having played in

[00:50:26] recording studios there are three things always stick in my mind how fast they work and that is

[00:50:30] because of experience to be fair but they go in they go put your drums over there they put mics up

[00:50:35] they go in you track five tracks in a day it sounds amazing you go home if you were doing that at home

[00:50:43] you're tracking you're doing one track in a day because you've spent five hours getting your mic

[00:50:46] placement and getting it to sound good and yes then you can track the rest but studios work incredibly

[00:50:51] fast um because everything's patched in everything's ready you just go yeah i want the dbx 160 on the

[00:50:57] yeah fine it's ready to go and the other thing is that they have the the uh gained knowledge to do

[00:51:05] exactly that my overhead sound thin i'm going to try putting one over here and they will know very

[00:51:11] quickly whether that's fixed the problem or that's not made the problem any better so it's not uh

[00:51:17] probably because they've got a separate control room but they're not having to record some stuff

[00:51:20] listen to it move something record some stuff listen to it they just go into a control room and say to

[00:51:26] the drummer hit stuff and then they go no that's no better or it's better or whatever so it came up

[00:51:33] the other week when we were speaking with warren about uh warren here when we were talking about

[00:51:37] recording studios there's less of them now and you know that sort of thing but they are still why do

[00:51:43] big artists go to recording studios it's not because they're big artists and they go oh i'm only

[00:51:47] recording at abbey road it's because they go i'm going to abbey road because it they know what they're

[00:51:51] doing they've got great mics the room will sound good and it will be really quick and we'll go

[00:51:55] in and we'll record it all and we'll be out and because they've had the experience of recording

[00:52:00] drum sets there for years whereas in your bedroom you've only recorded it once right yeah if or a

[00:52:08] couple of times so you've not gotten the the mic placements before you the the knowledge of what

[00:52:14] sounds good in your bedroom so that's why studios are absolutely relevant very actually this is

[00:52:20] something i can pick up from from something you said before uh i think it was nate you said you were

[00:52:24] talking about oh are microphones still relevant now that we could do so much digitally and i was

[00:52:30] thinking in a kind of philosophical frame of mind thinking well is production at all relevant if you

[00:52:36] can get some ai engine just to create the sound which we have to acknowledge is going to happen

[00:52:43] it's happening to graphic artists it's happening to videographers it's going to happen to us that ai is

[00:52:48] going to replace what we do but it's not going to replace what we do in the same way that mp3 has

[00:52:54] never fully replaced vinyl because the issue that all this stuff isn't is all this uh ai stuff isn't

[00:53:01] factoring in is the fact that there's a human element to this and that the reason i think why

[00:53:06] recording studios are going to remain in existence is because music is a human endeavor that humans enjoy

[00:53:11] doing and so the humans who do it are going to want to have fun doing it and the best way to have fun

[00:53:18] a record is to get everyone together in a room and record them quickly with people who know what

[00:53:23] they're doing and who are fun to be around which happens to be called a recording studio so irrespective

[00:53:30] of whether you need to do it irrespective of whether you can get a result out at the end that

[00:53:34] sounds identical any musician in any band you speak to is going to want to go into a studio

[00:53:39] because it's so much more fun to do it that way if they actually care about the music there will

[00:53:44] always be people who don't and will happily get the ai to do it and just do the marketing and the

[00:53:49] being the personality but actually people do music because they love music and there are always going

[00:53:55] to be enough people who love music that i think they're always going to want to go into studios

[00:53:59] because it's just such an enjoyable way to make music without having to think about any technicalities

[00:54:06] stuff yeah i think in the future ai is going to be a tool it's going to be something that we use

[00:54:13] maybe to like get an idea like i've got an 11 rack here and it's not ai i'm just saying but it's like

[00:54:20] it's it's it's not i just plug it in and i get some guitar tones right um it's it's a great tool it

[00:54:26] actually sounds really good i have used it on records but uh or recordings but uh you know there's

[00:54:32] something to just mic and sum up and then just the the human element like we're in the we're in

[00:54:39] as i mean if you think of it as people who work in the music industry we are in the uh in the

[00:54:45] industry of providing experiences and ai can't can't provide people experiences they can just provide a

[00:54:52] product a thing so as long as people want experiences they're always going to come to real

[00:54:58] places and real people live music is going to continue to be a thing even if people can

[00:55:02] go see ai i mean even if they go can go see the avatars in in this kind of ai abba things actually

[00:55:09] they're still going to go see abba cover bands probably too or they're probably going to still

[00:55:13] go see bands in real life because they want something genuine and something that's kind of

[00:55:18] an enjoyable experience not just the the outcome well like like you said earlier mike you know the

[00:55:24] the the reason why microphones are still relevant is because you're capturing something that's moving the

[00:55:29] air and a digital signal doesn't move the air right and so there's a difference right there and and

[00:55:37] put that in the context of of recording studios and being in the same room with people you're you're in a

[00:55:43] room where air is moving and energy is bouncing off the walls whether that be sound energy or

[00:55:51] somebody's you know smile when they hear their voice coming through a top quality microphone that energy

[00:55:58] transfers into other people that transfers into the band that transfers into the recording engineer

[00:56:04] that's sitting behind the glass and all of that collective energy then translates into the audio

[00:56:11] that's being recorded and you don't get that when you're sitting by yourself in your your project

[00:56:17] studio and not saying that you shouldn't sit by yourself in your project studio because how else

[00:56:22] would demos ever start right they you know in your bedroom in your in your basement but having that

[00:56:30] that experience with other people in the same room with with gear moving air that's not ever going to

[00:56:38] be replaceable by ai or by algorithms or or by by dsp processing

[00:56:47] that's my take i might be an unpopular opinion but you know that there's there's nothing that beats

[00:56:55] just you know after covid and we got done with zooms and here we are on a zoom meeting but after you know

[00:57:03] getting done with zooms i it being in the same room with my friends that i watched on a screen for two

[00:57:09] years was amazing right and so that experience is something that that will never go away yeah art is a

[00:57:19] human experience it is a human experience absolutely wow we are way off we got deep we got real deep

[00:57:30] that is good there's there's man i i i don't know i i don't have anything else because like

[00:57:41] yeah i don't know what do you guys got i i don't have anything else i am i think um

[00:57:47] i think yeah i mean i think there's a i think there's many things that yeah i mean just just just my

[00:57:51] final take on the ai thing is you know you mentioned you've got a microphone that emulates other microphones

[00:57:57] yeah and i love it it was well it was well worth the investment because i'm not going to be able to

[00:58:04] get an rca 44 ribbon mic you know really just i thought that was christmas this year night

[00:58:13] oh well if you're sending one i couldn't ship it to america it's too expensive uh but see that's a

[00:58:19] tool that's a again that's a tool that you're using that maybe you couldn't afford something

[00:58:23] another thing that's coming out with ai is um ai driven light shows uh maestro dmx or something like

[00:58:32] that is a new product that came out that i'm thinking about buying because like i don't have

[00:58:35] a light guy my lights are controlled by a foot pedal i i have a foot pedal and i control it by a midi

[00:58:42] here it's like well you've got ai that will listen to the the live performance that you're playing

[00:58:47] and will uh will just blink the lights and and and make the light show based on the music that is

[00:58:54] playing that sounds very interesting to somebody like me who has just we have a three-piece with no

[00:59:01] you know with no light guy but that'll never replace like we were talking with uh lee turner

[00:59:06] about you know he's they've got a light guy out there and it's not all like pre-programmed or

[00:59:12] anything he's he's there pressing the buttons he's there he knows what lights he wants to play when he

[00:59:17] wants to play even though they're playing to a click and that human element you you will never

[00:59:22] replace that but for for people that like like you you don't you won't own that expensive ribbon

[00:59:27] microphone so a little emulator not a problem right that's it's a tool it's using it as a tool not

[00:59:34] something to replace a human i can recommend cheap ribbon microphones though and i sure and i think

[00:59:41] about the great thing about ribbon microphones is they're simple they're so simple i mean it's a big

[00:59:46] working great magnet and a ribbon and there's not much to go wrong with it so a lot of cheap

[00:59:52] ribbon mics actually sound quite good they do and i have a few uh one of my favorites uh actually it's

[00:59:58] it's up here is a royero 101 uh ribbon mic no i mean but that's a that's that's an expensive ribbon

[01:00:05] mic as far as i'm concerned i bought it used so it was inexpensive there we go there we go

[01:00:09] it's a bargain ribbon mic but i think that's the thing the thing i've loved about this conversation

[01:00:16] is um i think so i've been a drummer for years but i've been a mastering engineer for just over a

[01:00:22] decade that's sort of what i do now i play with a lot less drums hence it's just electronic here in

[01:00:26] my house but i do mainly mastering and the bit that has become apparent the more we speak to people

[01:00:32] like yourself or uh warren hewitt or ian shepherd or anything like that is you're all thinking about

[01:00:40] the step before and the step after no matter what you're doing so if you're mixing or if you're

[01:00:45] recording you're thinking of how is this going to sit when i get to mix it so when you're micing a

[01:00:51] guitar stack you're not just plugging it in going well that sounds good you're going well it does sound

[01:00:55] good but that's not going to fit in the mix with everything else that's going on

[01:01:01] and when you're mastering and when you're mixing neil's always said you know if you and nate if

[01:01:06] you mix with the master in mind then you're all and i think that's the bit that is becoming more

[01:01:12] and more apparent to me the more people we talk to on this podcast it's you have to think of the

[01:01:18] project as a whole and what you're trying to create as a as an entity and that influences how you record it

[01:01:25] how you mix it and then when you send it to a mastering engineer he should be able to and i say

[01:01:30] he she they apologies should be able to hear the mix and understand the vision for that song and that's

[01:01:39] the bit that we touched on it with in shepherd about ai mastering the land isn't that they they do a very

[01:01:45] good job and they are very very useful in some circumstances but they don't understand because

[01:01:51] they're not human the emotional feeling that was supposed to be for that album or that single and

[01:01:59] that's the bit that i think is the same you're talking about you know when we're talking about

[01:02:03] microphones it might not be there's anything wrong with the eq curve for that 57 on that vocal but you

[01:02:10] know with your ears that's not right yeah and it's it and actually what you're talking about i mean in a

[01:02:17] sense some people could call that like the a vision for the project you know people often talk about

[01:02:22] you know you you if you're going to mix something you're going to record something the only way you

[01:02:26] can really decide what is the right sound is if you have a vision for what it needs to be and that's

[01:02:31] really what it is you've you put your finger on it it's about having that sense of what you're doing

[01:02:36] being within the context of all the other stages of the project you're working on and that's the very

[01:02:42] reason why again why i think recording engineers will never go out of out of business because you

[01:02:48] can have all the gear in the world you can have all the i mean you can whatever the digital stuff can do

[01:02:54] whatever you can buy in your home studio if you don't have the experience of doing a bunch of

[01:02:59] projects you can't have that vision it's it's you know that's where it comes from it comes from

[01:03:04] having done a bunch of stuff wrong and we go well i won't do that again and knowing what makes

[01:03:10] something work and what doesn't having that overview so yeah the all the all the gear and no idea

[01:03:16] people are always going to need recording engineers so once again we come back to putting in the 10 000

[01:03:23] hours right it comes down to putting in the work it's a common thing learning what works and what

[01:03:28] doesn't yeah yeah that seems to be the seems to be the answer to a lot of things is like how do i dot

[01:03:37] dot dot dot well just you know do it experience yeah well there's no easy way to any place worth

[01:03:45] going no no and that is that is another thing that i i you know don't like about youtube videos is

[01:03:52] there's no shortcuts there's no secret that we're missing out on sorry mike i know that you know

[01:03:59] i've got i've copped flag for that too people have said well what do you mean secrets

[01:04:03] so i knew about this already or you know right oh give me a bit of artistic license yeah absolutely

[01:04:09] but there's no shortcuts here there's no there's no like five five tips that you've never heard of

[01:04:15] that are going to magically make your recording your mix better there it's it's repetition it's knowing

[01:04:21] your equipment knowing your room knowing you know the the the thing you're about to to record

[01:04:29] knowing your performance right you don't just get in front of a microphone and be like well here goes

[01:04:34] nothing you know you know what you're gonna play and you're gonna play it well that's gonna that's

[01:04:40] gonna evoke a good performance through a microphone record it into your doll or on tape if you so happen

[01:04:47] to choose you know so it's all about knowing what you're about to do knowing your room knowing your

[01:04:55] equipment and doing it again and again yeah it's fun it's it is funny isn't it how we spoke to leanne lee

[01:05:04] warren mike joe it doesn't matter who you speak to they go well how did you how did how did you get to

[01:05:11] where you are because i did it a lot and i did it over and over again and i got good at it because i did

[01:05:16] it a lot i mean that's everybody's answer that that is the answer and if you want a great place to

[01:05:21] practice mixing you can go to cambridgemt.com and and get some great multi-tracks right yeah

[01:05:29] indeed absolutely practice a look at that smooth segue you see i can tell you've been podcasting for a while

[01:05:34] neil you're you're you're happening see it's repetition you're doing it episode after episode there we go

[01:05:41] yeah yeah this is what episode seven right we'll figure it out we pressed record at the right points

[01:05:47] and yeah yeah yeah i hate listening to myself on episode one yeah i'm like hey friends if you're

[01:05:56] gonna listen to me start with episode two yeah well i think that we have touched upon everything we

[01:06:03] wanted to and there's not much more that i really you know want to find out at this point i want to

[01:06:08] get to work now um recording some stuff mike this has been a great conversation uh it's been a pleasure

[01:06:16] thank you so much i think i've interviewed you more than you've interviewed me to be honest

[01:06:19] that's perfect that's great though that that's that's excellent yeah no you've been a wonderful

[01:06:25] guest um thank you for your time thank you for your your knowledge and expertise you're more than

[01:06:31] welcome you know obviously we stated your websites cambridge mt cambridge-mt.com um they can

[01:06:38] find you on sound on sound magazine in sound on sound magazine with the mix review

[01:06:43] and whatnot and you're on patreon uh i encourage everyone to go and and check these resources out

[01:06:50] if you have not already uh mike is there anything you want to say to close us out

[01:06:55] uh no i mean the the main thing is if you want to support the stuff i'm doing because i do a lot

[01:06:59] of educational stuff then the patreon thing is the is the best place to go and i also do a lot of my

[01:07:05] kind of video and podcast development there so there's like 100 odd videos 100 odd podcasts there

[01:07:10] like mixing tutorial podcasts so uh yeah if you want to get the get the stuff that i'm doing

[01:07:15] kind of the best stuff that i'm doing then the best way to do that is to support the cambridge mt site

[01:07:18] you know enable me to keep hosting these multi-tracks and keep providing uh things like the the

[01:07:24] microphone position library and things like that uh yeah that's great wonderful well thank you mike

[01:07:31] thank you everyone for for being here and uh this was a great conversation i'm sure we'll hear more

[01:07:37] from mike senior in future episodes uh but for now thanks for joining us and we'll see you guys again

[01:07:44] next month thank you for listening to sound discussion your hosts are ben holmes neil merchant and me

[01:08:06] nate kelms our theme song is composed and recorded by jojo timmerman you can find us on the internet

[01:08:13] at sound discussion podcast dot com or you can drop us a line at sound discussion podcast at gmail dot com

[01:08:21] additional show notes for this episode can be found on our website or in the description area of your

[01:08:26] podcast player a big thank you to our guest for taking the time to chat with us today and to you

[01:08:32] the listener for taking time out of your busy schedule to be part of our discussion we look forward to

[01:08:39] having you join us again next month on another episode of sound discussion does anyone else have

[01:08:44] a problem with the fact that the the sound engineer has clearly not switched on the bass mic and is

[01:08:48] eating a sandwich