DAWs. They are all the same, right... right?

Welcome back to Episode 10 of Sound Discussion!

This month we are talking DAWS. We all know what they are but are they all the same and does it matter which one you use?

The three of us discuss which we use, have used and why we chose them.

Send us an email and let us know what you thought about this episode: sounddiscussionpodcast@gmail.com

You can find more information here: https://linktr.ee/sounddiscussionpodcast

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[00:00:00] Hey everybody, welcome to episode 10 of Sound Discussion.

[00:00:04] 10?

[00:00:05] 10.

[00:00:08] Wow, yeah, so 10 months, episode 10, we're kind of wrapping up the year here and what a year

[00:00:17] it's been.

[00:00:18] Yeah.

[00:00:18] I don't want to do a full recap, but we've had some really great guests.

[00:00:22] We've had some really great feedback from our guests and our listeners.

[00:00:27] And so I wanted to take a quick minute and talk to all of you out there that are listening

[00:00:32] on your earbuds and your car speakers and your little mono Bluetooth boombox thingies and

[00:00:39] just say thank you for listening for these last 10 months, these last 10 episodes.

[00:00:44] And thank you for letting us know what you thought about these 10 episodes because it

[00:00:50] really does mean a lot to us, Ben, Neil and myself.

[00:00:56] Because we didn't know what the heck we were doing.

[00:00:59] Still don't.

[00:01:01] Didn't know if this would work.

[00:01:02] Didn't know if anyone else would be listening besides our dozen or so circle of friends.

[00:01:09] And people have been reaching out and saying hi and letting us know what they thought.

[00:01:15] And so if you could do one thing for us, we would be eternally grateful.

[00:01:21] Go and leave a five-star rating on your podcast platform of choice.

[00:01:26] Apple.

[00:01:28] YouTube Music Now instead of Google Podcasts.

[00:01:32] I'm not sure.

[00:01:32] Spotify.

[00:01:33] Spotify.

[00:01:34] Wherever.

[00:01:35] Leave a five-star rating.

[00:01:37] Leave us a little just say hey, nice review.

[00:01:40] Something like that.

[00:01:41] And tell your friends.

[00:01:42] Spread the word.

[00:01:43] We have a bunch of really cool ideas for the upcoming season, season two, which will kick

[00:01:50] off in January.

[00:01:53] And hopefully we're still working on getting our guests in line.

[00:01:56] But some cool guests that we have potentially lined up.

[00:02:01] So you definitely don't want to miss it.

[00:02:03] I'm not going to spoil anything beyond that.

[00:02:07] But, you know, tell your friends.

[00:02:09] Leave us a five-star rating.

[00:02:10] Help us out with that and sort of boost our presence in the algorithm land.

[00:02:16] So thank you, everybody.

[00:02:18] We really do appreciate it.

[00:02:20] And with that, let's get this show on the road, huh?

[00:02:25] Hello, and welcome to Sound Discussion.

[00:02:28] Each episode, we discuss a music topic which we have all had firsthand experience with.

[00:02:33] These will be anything from getting started, recording, playing live, mixing, mastering,

[00:02:39] and everything in between.

[00:02:40] Most episodes will have a special guest to bring their professional experience to the discussion.

[00:02:46] Let's get started.

[00:02:52] Well, look, it's really good.

[00:02:54] There's no guest this month.

[00:02:56] It's just the three of us.

[00:02:57] I thought we'd talk about something that I know I've been asked quite a lot down the years.

[00:03:03] I'm pretty sure Nate and Neil have been asked this a lot.

[00:03:06] Oh, yeah.

[00:03:06] D-A-W's.

[00:03:08] Door.

[00:03:08] Call it what you like.

[00:03:10] I've been asked so many times, which one should I use?

[00:03:15] And I always give the flippant answer, which is whichever one you want.

[00:03:18] But actually, is that true?

[00:03:21] No, because I'm going to make a statement, right?

[00:03:26] They all do the same thing.

[00:03:27] No?

[00:03:29] And the answer to that is they do all do the same thing.

[00:03:31] They record noughts and ones of music and allow you to produce music and do MIDI and stuff.

[00:03:40] Yeah.

[00:03:41] But they're not all the same, right?

[00:03:43] I hear your hesitation because is the answer the right answer or the wrong answer?

[00:03:49] They're not all the same, are they?

[00:03:50] They're not.

[00:03:51] That's the bottom line.

[00:03:51] They're not all the same.

[00:03:52] They're not all created equal.

[00:03:54] They are and they're not.

[00:03:56] Again, another...

[00:03:57] Welcome to the nebulous world of what the heck do I use to record my music with?

[00:04:02] Exactly.

[00:04:03] So here's the things I want to cover from each of us.

[00:04:06] And I hope these are interesting for everybody who's listening.

[00:04:09] I want us to cover the first D-A-W we ever used.

[00:04:13] First one we ever saw, ever used, ever touched.

[00:04:15] I want us to touch the first one we really used, actually got into.

[00:04:20] Okay.

[00:04:21] If we're not using that now, and it's quite possible you're still using that now, what

[00:04:26] we switched to and why.

[00:04:29] And then I want to know how many times have you switched D-A-W if you're not only on your

[00:04:35] first or second one, right?

[00:04:37] And I think this is really interesting because I think then what we'll do at the end, and

[00:04:40] we'll try and keep this episode to a sensible length, right?

[00:04:43] Because we have a habit of waffling.

[00:04:46] So at the end, I want us to cover, are they all the same?

[00:04:50] Is one better for one thing and one's better for another?

[00:04:54] Does it matter which one you pick?

[00:04:56] And then we'll see where we get to.

[00:04:58] So that's what I thought we'd do today.

[00:05:01] Because I think it might answer a lot of questions.

[00:05:05] Yeah.

[00:05:06] Okay.

[00:05:06] This is definitely a topic that people ask.

[00:05:09] This is one that...

[00:05:10] Oh, go ahead.

[00:05:11] Let me go grab my can of worms.

[00:05:13] I want to open it.

[00:05:14] Oh, here we go.

[00:05:15] Yeah.

[00:05:17] Okay.

[00:05:18] So, shall I get this ball rolling?

[00:05:20] Shall I kick this off?

[00:05:21] And then we'll go around from there.

[00:05:22] Okay.

[00:05:23] And feel free to ask me any questions you like about this journey because it's going to be

[00:05:28] a wild ride.

[00:05:29] Oh, here we go.

[00:05:30] So, first D-A-W I ever used was an Atari 1040ST running Cubase in 1993?

[00:05:43] Four?

[00:05:44] Let's go with somewhere around there.

[00:05:46] So, I've just showed how old I am, right?

[00:05:48] Because...

[00:05:48] Wow.

[00:05:49] I've only heard about those.

[00:05:50] Yeah.

[00:05:51] In museums and stuff, right?

[00:05:53] I think they're the Smithsonian, man.

[00:05:56] Yeah.

[00:05:56] So, my best friend at the time had a studio that had a one-inch eight-track tape recorder

[00:06:05] with a SMPTE timecode, a full 16x4x2 mixing desk and an Atari 1040ST running Cubase plugged

[00:06:15] into the SMPTE timecode.

[00:06:16] And you could spool the tape backwards and forwards from the computer.

[00:06:21] I know.

[00:06:22] It was incredible.

[00:06:24] It is.

[00:06:25] It was also painful because the SMPTE never worked properly.

[00:06:29] Hopefully, the tape would stretch over time and then it wouldn't actually be.

[00:06:34] Anyway.

[00:06:35] So, that was the first thing I ever used.

[00:06:38] And to be honest, it was absolute pain and misery.

[00:06:41] It was...

[00:06:41] I can imagine back then it was easier for studios just to record on tape and just not

[00:06:46] bother with the whole sequenced computer thing.

[00:06:49] But he had a Roland JV 1080 sound module for his keyboard that you could record on the Atari

[00:06:56] and then play guitars to it in the studio.

[00:06:59] It was...

[00:07:00] Wow.

[00:07:01] Ah, it was amazing.

[00:07:06] And then I thought, oh, this is fine.

[00:07:09] And I can set this up at home on a little computer.

[00:07:11] So, I got a copy of Cubase and I got some sound card and I put it on a computer and I could

[00:07:18] never get rid of the latency of I pressed a key on my keyboard and four seconds later a

[00:07:24] sound came out.

[00:07:27] So, that was it.

[00:07:28] I parked it.

[00:07:29] And I didn't touch a DAW again for probably 15 years.

[00:07:35] Genuinely just played drums in bands.

[00:07:39] So, it wasn't on that side, on the other side of the glass.

[00:07:43] You were the musician.

[00:07:44] Because...

[00:07:45] In the studios, but not dealing with the recording side of things.

[00:07:48] Yeah.

[00:07:48] Because...

[00:07:49] Okay, fair enough.

[00:07:49] I just couldn't...

[00:07:50] I couldn't make it work.

[00:07:51] And I didn't want a full studio at home.

[00:07:54] I wanted it in the box already back then.

[00:07:56] It was like, I'm just...

[00:07:57] And I only got back into it much, much later when somebody showed me Reaper.

[00:08:04] Mm-hmm.

[00:08:05] For free.

[00:08:06] And the technology had moved on and all of a sudden, I was able to use MIDI on my MIDI

[00:08:12] keyboard and program it and it would come out and there wasn't a horrific latency and

[00:08:17] it was good.

[00:08:18] And I did that for ages.

[00:08:20] I wrote...

[00:08:20] In fact, all of my...

[00:08:22] The first 15 songs I ever wrote were in Reaper.

[00:08:27] With...

[00:08:28] All that that entails.

[00:08:30] So, plugins...

[00:08:31] What was your interface at that time?

[00:08:35] I had...

[00:08:37] An M-Audio...

[00:08:40] Something or other.

[00:08:41] Two-channel with MIDI.

[00:08:43] And that was it.

[00:08:44] I mean, those boxes were workhorses.

[00:08:47] I mean...

[00:08:48] I had one too.

[00:08:49] I don't think anyone really has anything bad to say about those early M-Audio models.

[00:08:54] That's pretty much all there was and they did what they were supposed to do.

[00:08:57] So...

[00:08:57] So, you were using Cubase.

[00:08:59] Did Cubase come with or did you buy that separately with your audio interface or...

[00:09:05] Oh, so...

[00:09:06] So, the M-Audio interface, I bought secondhand off eBay.

[00:09:10] So, it didn't come with anything.

[00:09:11] It didn't come with, yeah.

[00:09:12] So, I got Reaper for free off the internet.

[00:09:15] In fact, I think in the end, I paid the $60 for the permanent license for Reaper because

[00:09:21] it was $60 and it was like, sure.

[00:09:23] Yeah, why not, right?

[00:09:24] And I've got to say, it's a perfectly usable DAW.

[00:09:29] If you can get past, everything just looks like sliders, buttons, and numbers.

[00:09:34] There's no...

[00:09:35] It doesn't look like an LA-2A.

[00:09:37] It doesn't look like a...

[00:09:39] You know, it works perfectly.

[00:09:42] Yeah, I've got some things to say about that when it's my turn.

[00:09:45] You know, for me, it's one of those...

[00:09:49] It...

[00:09:50] I mean, it works, right?

[00:09:51] Everything works.

[00:09:52] There's no reason why...

[00:09:53] If you know what you're doing, there's the caveat.

[00:09:57] If you know what you're doing, so your compressor can just be some sliders with some numbers on

[00:10:02] and you understand what that means, you could use it.

[00:10:05] There's no reason why not.

[00:10:06] But it very quickly got to the point where I was like, yeah, this is not inspiring to use.

[00:10:15] I think that was my thing at the time.

[00:10:16] It was like a maths lesson when I'm trying to do music.

[00:10:20] That's what I'd relate it to.

[00:10:22] Well, and especially when you're trying to figure stuff out and you're YouTubing things

[00:10:26] and no one is using that.

[00:10:28] So you're trying to interpret how to use your thing from all of these graphical interfaces

[00:10:34] that everyone else is using.

[00:10:35] And you're just like, this doesn't match up.

[00:10:38] I don't know.

[00:10:38] This makes no sense.

[00:10:39] It's not helping me.

[00:10:41] Exactly.

[00:10:41] You know, I go on the internet and see Joe pulling up a compressor and the needle moving

[00:10:48] so I can figure out where the compression's kicked in.

[00:10:51] And all of a sudden I've pulled Reaper up and I've got sliders.

[00:10:56] And it's just not.

[00:10:58] So then I thought, I'm going to have to do something different.

[00:11:01] So I actually bought Logic Pro, Apple's Logic Pro.

[00:11:06] Because I thought, I'm on a Mac.

[00:11:08] Oh, look, Apple do this thing.

[00:11:10] And I'll go with that.

[00:11:12] You can see how this journey is going for me.

[00:11:14] I mean, that's a pro move right there.

[00:11:16] I mean, Logic Pro is, I mean, what?

[00:11:19] Probably number two DAW out there?

[00:11:22] Probably.

[00:11:23] Yeah, maybe.

[00:11:24] Maybe.

[00:11:24] I don't know.

[00:11:26] Billy and Phineas seem to make that work for an entire Grammy award-winning album, right?

[00:11:31] Yeah, absolutely.

[00:11:32] Tons of producers use Logic Pro.

[00:11:34] So certainly to say, well, I moved to Logic Pro is not a sort of like, meh, move.

[00:11:39] No, it's a very good, it's a very good DAW.

[00:11:44] It's a very good DAW.

[00:11:46] And from a creative point of view, it's got so much built in.

[00:11:50] You can have pianos or organs or, you know, you turn it on, you load it up.

[00:11:55] There you go.

[00:11:55] You're ready to go.

[00:11:56] And there are things like their drummer track and now their bassist track that will play along with you.

[00:12:01] Incredible.

[00:12:01] Wait, they have a bassist track now?

[00:12:03] Yeah.

[00:12:04] I'm Apple Logic Pro 10 certified.

[00:12:07] Oh, no, no.

[00:12:08] Now.

[00:12:08] Yeah.

[00:12:09] And I remember the drummer one and that was just such a incredible feature.

[00:12:14] Now they have a bassist.

[00:12:16] They have a bassist that will play along with your drummer track.

[00:12:19] That's ridiculous.

[00:12:21] It's incredible.

[00:12:21] So, so our friend Hershey, everything he does is in Logic Pro.

[00:12:27] He's a big Logic Pro fan.

[00:12:29] And I would say it's a brilliant DAW.

[00:12:32] I never clicked with it.

[00:12:34] I found everything I wanted to do was a struggle and my brain never could get round what that was.

[00:12:41] It's just if I wanted to, I don't know, I wanted to stretch a piece of audio, couldn't figure out how to do it.

[00:12:46] I wanted to fade, crossfade two bits.

[00:12:50] I couldn't figure out how to do it.

[00:12:51] It took me ages to do anything because I never, my brain just was like, hmm, really complicated.

[00:12:57] And I don't know why.

[00:12:58] It just wouldn't do it.

[00:13:00] And then I found Studio One and it went, I know this is how it should work.

[00:13:05] This is brilliant.

[00:13:06] That makes total sense.

[00:13:08] And so I was with Studio One for years and years and years and years.

[00:13:11] Now, I'm now at the point where I don't write much of my own music anymore.

[00:13:15] I provide drum tracks for people and I do mastering.

[00:13:19] And I was, it was about five weeks ago and maybe a little bit more than that.

[00:13:28] And somebody said, you only do MIDI, don't you?

[00:13:30] Because all my drums are electric drum kit.

[00:13:32] MIDI, superior drummer sounds, away we go.

[00:13:37] And they said, you should try Cubase because the MIDI in Cubase is unbelievably good.

[00:13:42] And I was like, nah, I'll give it a go.

[00:13:45] It is phenomenal.

[00:13:46] If you are Cubase, Cubase is phenomenal.

[00:13:50] I would say all the way back to Cubase from 1993, right?

[00:13:56] If you are predominantly MIDI, Cubase is unbelievably good.

[00:14:02] Unbelievably good.

[00:14:03] It's really intuitive.

[00:14:04] It works.

[00:14:07] It works with MIDI.

[00:14:09] We'll come on to this.

[00:14:10] How Pro Tools works with audio, right?

[00:14:12] It just goes, no, this is what I do.

[00:14:15] Yeah, it's just MIDI.

[00:14:16] Yeah, let's just go.

[00:14:17] We'll go do this.

[00:14:18] To the point where what used to take me...

[00:14:23] So Logic's problem is it doesn't have a drummer, a drum track mode for MIDI.

[00:14:31] So you can't have triangles or diamonds.

[00:14:33] Everything is like a MIDI note.

[00:14:36] Now, to a drummer, that is painful because I don't need a tail.

[00:14:42] Right.

[00:14:43] It's...

[00:14:43] I just need...

[00:14:44] Diamonds or triangles, I don't mind which is a hit.

[00:14:47] You just need the instance of the hit, the transient.

[00:14:51] Studio One does that.

[00:14:52] They've got that.

[00:14:53] That's great.

[00:14:54] The bit that I've never...

[00:14:56] There's bits in Studio One's MIDI that just are not as nice.

[00:14:59] Things like Cubase has this really clever quantizing function.

[00:15:02] I don't use quantizing a lot, but sometimes it's handy to just bring it all a little bit tighter if I've not played it.

[00:15:10] If I've played what I wanted, but I've not played it well, it's handy to tighten that up a bit occasionally.

[00:15:17] And it does some really intelligent stuff about how close to the beat you are, how much it can allow it to flow.

[00:15:23] So you get a much more natural.

[00:15:25] It's not just a fine that, move it.

[00:15:27] Might be Studio One does that.

[00:15:29] I've never...

[00:15:30] I've never figured it out.

[00:15:31] Whereas in Cubase, it's really intuitive.

[00:15:33] I know Logic does that too.

[00:15:35] Yeah.

[00:15:36] I'm sure it does, right?

[00:15:37] It's just...

[00:15:37] Because it's not the hit, and I've got this in time, it's a block.

[00:15:41] It just doesn't...

[00:15:42] It just doesn't feel nice, right?

[00:15:44] So I've gone the whole circle, and I'm back to where I started.

[00:15:48] Because I do mastering most of the time and drum tracks for people, I've gone Cubase and WaveLab.

[00:15:57] And for mastering, I use Studio One for mastering for a long time on their project page.

[00:16:06] It's good.

[00:16:09] It has some really annoying bits that we won't get into today, but there are some bits for mastering which are really annoying.

[00:16:16] I got suggested I try WaveLab for mastering.

[00:16:20] It's unbelievable.

[00:16:21] The bit is so powerful.

[00:16:23] Okay.

[00:16:24] But there we are.

[00:16:25] So that's my journey.

[00:16:26] I've done the whole gambit, and I've ended up back where I started.

[00:16:30] And what's my takeaway from that?

[00:16:32] They are not all the same.

[00:16:35] That is my takeaway from that.

[00:16:36] They are not all the same.

[00:16:37] We got one vote for not all the same.

[00:16:39] They're not all the same.

[00:16:41] They're all good.

[00:16:42] They're not all the same.

[00:16:45] I have a couple questions for you.

[00:16:46] Oh, go for it.

[00:16:47] Yeah, yeah.

[00:16:47] Before we go on, I have a couple questions for you.

[00:16:49] One, so what is your thoughts with Cubase and mixing?

[00:16:53] If the MIDI is good, how's the mixing side of it?

[00:16:57] Um, I genuinely like everything about it.

[00:17:02] Okay.

[00:17:04] I've done recently, I've done some audio recording and audio editing and splicing.

[00:17:08] The mixer, so it has the same philosophy, I think, because I'm going to make this statement,

[00:17:14] but I've never really got into it that much as Pro Tools, where everything is a track.

[00:17:19] So you have an audio track, you have a MIDI track, you have a tempo track,

[00:17:25] you have an arranger track, you have a, and in your track stack, you can see everything.

[00:17:33] So here's all my audio tracks.

[00:17:34] Here's all my MIDI tracks.

[00:17:36] Here's my tempo track.

[00:17:37] Here's my, and to me, that makes a lot of sense.

[00:17:40] I believe that's very similar to Pro Tools, but I'm not a Pro Tools person.

[00:17:44] I've never used it.

[00:17:45] So I can't speak from experience.

[00:17:47] The mixer, I think, I think it's really, it's really easy to mix in Cubase.

[00:17:56] But I would also say, I think Studio One for mixing is really good.

[00:18:02] I think the way they handle, oh, I want to, I want to send, right click send, I've created

[00:18:07] a send, I've already said it all up.

[00:18:10] Cubase does that as well.

[00:18:11] To be honest, it's very easy to do that.

[00:18:14] Do other applications do the drag and drop philosophy like Studio One does?

[00:18:19] Because you can drag something into the send, like a plugin, a reverb plugin.

[00:18:25] You can just drop it into the send area and it will create the send, put the plugin on

[00:18:29] it, you know, kind of, it accomplishes two, three steps in one move.

[00:18:33] Logic Pro definitely doesn't.

[00:18:36] Logic Pro is, I think, is more like, again, like Pro Tools where you say...

[00:18:40] Pro is very much like Pro Tools, yeah.

[00:18:42] Send this thing to this bus and then attach that bus.

[00:18:45] Yeah, you have to set up all these buses and it's...

[00:18:47] Yeah.

[00:18:48] Yeah, it's really...

[00:18:48] I think Cubase is a bit more sort of halfway between the two.

[00:18:52] Okay.

[00:18:52] But I think, I think Studio One is very good for that very quick, right, grab that, drop

[00:19:00] it on the send on this channel, it will create a bus, you know, an effects bus for that

[00:19:06] and it will send that, so it does all that for you very, very well.

[00:19:10] I think actually Cubase is one of those, it's really interesting because I think if you tried

[00:19:18] it, I think within an hour you'll be like, oh no, there's a, this is, this has got, this

[00:19:24] has got some good stuff in it, you know.

[00:19:26] And I always thought that, I always thought Cubase, because I've tried it from 1994, I

[00:19:34] was like, oh, it's the old one, it's the old one in the green, you know, it's been around

[00:19:37] forever and, and actually Cubase, whatever it is now, 13, whatever we're up to, it's,

[00:19:43] it's really impressive.

[00:19:46] But again, it's just my personal journey.

[00:19:47] I know that, you know, Hershey swears by Logic Pro and I could never get my head around

[00:19:53] that.

[00:19:54] So yeah, it's, I find this is why I wanted to discuss this today because I think it's

[00:19:58] really interesting.

[00:19:59] And our listeners are probably wondering who the heck is this Hershey dude?

[00:20:04] Hershey, Hershey Bell.

[00:20:04] And why are we talking?

[00:20:05] Doctor, Doctor.

[00:20:06] Doctor Hershey Bell.

[00:20:07] Doctor Hershey.

[00:20:08] We'll, we'll put a link to his songs in the show notes.

[00:20:12] Yeah, we'll bring him on sometime for sure.

[00:20:14] We'll get him on the show, definitely.

[00:20:15] I'd produce a couple songs for him and mix some stuff.

[00:20:18] And I'm sure you've done drums and another, a bunch of our friends have done work with

[00:20:23] him and his songs.

[00:20:24] And he is definitely a prolific songwriter.

[00:20:28] Prolific songwriter.

[00:20:29] So yeah.

[00:20:30] Yeah.

[00:20:30] That would be good.

[00:20:31] And then one other question for you with Wave Lab.

[00:20:34] Yeah.

[00:20:35] And Studio One.

[00:20:36] I know I do like the project page in Studio One, but I think that in the context of moving

[00:20:44] your song from the creation, the normal song page into the project page makes sense.

[00:20:54] But if you're purely a mastering engineer, does the project page really have any benefits over

[00:21:01] just mastering a song in the song page area?

[00:21:05] Yeah.

[00:21:06] Yeah.

[00:21:06] Yeah, definitely.

[00:21:06] Okay.

[00:21:07] Definitely.

[00:21:08] It allows you to have, yes, because of the way the workflow works.

[00:21:15] Okay.

[00:21:15] It allows you to have track, well, we'll call them plugins, inserts, whatever you want.

[00:21:21] I don't know what everyone's wording is.

[00:21:23] We'll call them plugins.

[00:21:24] Plugins.

[00:21:24] You can have track plugins and then you can have master plugins.

[00:21:27] And then you can have listen bus plugins.

[00:21:31] So instead of you having to set up buses all the way down to have your track go to,

[00:21:36] you can just, it allows you to have, you know, track based plugins and then master plugins.

[00:21:42] And when you, in the timeline, you can see your song.

[00:21:46] It's effectively like having a track for each song in your normal DAW.

[00:21:54] And then you've spaced the songs out across all the different tracks.

[00:21:59] And then all of those go to a master bus.

[00:22:02] And then all of those go to an output bus.

[00:22:07] And it basically is doing that for you, but you just have a nice window where you've got

[00:22:11] the track you're working on and it's plugins and the track you're working on it's plugins.

[00:22:13] So what does Wave Labs do that's different than the, like, does it do anything different

[00:22:22] than that or does it have the same?

[00:22:24] It's, so no, effectively, it does that.

[00:22:28] Oh, okay.

[00:22:29] What I would say is it does it on steroids in a much more advanced way.

[00:22:33] So for example, every plugin you can set, whether that's mid, side, stereo, left, right.

[00:22:43] So even on every plugin, you can just tell that that is only working on the sides.

[00:22:47] That's only working on the mids.

[00:22:48] That's only working on the left.

[00:22:50] You don't have to have, like, you can do that in Studio One with a splitter, but that's

[00:22:55] just native to Wave Labs.

[00:22:57] That's pretty cool.

[00:22:59] You can do monitoring on any point in that chain.

[00:23:03] You can say, I want to listen from there in that plugin chain.

[00:23:07] And it will just, it will just play it from, so you can hear what every single insert is

[00:23:13] doing, plugin is doing at any given point.

[00:23:17] Just by clicking the buttons, it will play effectively just from there.

[00:23:21] So it will bypass the plugin.

[00:23:24] It's really, it's designed for mastering.

[00:23:29] Does that make sense?

[00:23:30] You know, it's thick.

[00:23:30] Yeah, that just went over my head.

[00:23:33] It's purely designed for mastering.

[00:23:35] So you can do just little things like you put everything in, you will go, I want to build,

[00:23:39] I'm mastering for vinyl.

[00:23:41] These are all on side A.

[00:23:42] These are all on side B.

[00:23:43] I only want to export everything on side A.

[00:23:45] And I only want to export everything on side B.

[00:23:48] Yeah.

[00:23:48] It's properly, I would say it's properly built purely as a mastering platform.

[00:23:55] I know they say it isn't because you can record in it.

[00:23:57] I don't know why you would, but.

[00:23:58] Well, that was going to be my next question now.

[00:24:00] Does it have a mixed page?

[00:24:01] Does it have a benefit to a non-mastering person to use this application?

[00:24:05] WaveLab.

[00:24:06] No, use Keybase.

[00:24:08] Yeah.

[00:24:08] Okay.

[00:24:09] You know, that, for me, it's a mastering platform.

[00:24:12] I'm sure Steinberg is going to be disgusted by that as a, but that's what it does.

[00:24:17] It's a brilliant production suite, as in you can change the gain of any point in anything.

[00:24:30] You can split, you can cut, you can move it between tracks.

[00:24:33] You can crossfade between two with S-shaped fades instead of linear fades.

[00:24:38] I mean, it's everything you can imagine doing on steroids.

[00:24:42] And that's why I moved.

[00:24:43] Does it command a higher price than you would, you know, than you would think?

[00:24:48] Because it's a specialized application?

[00:24:51] It depends.

[00:24:52] I think it's about $400.

[00:24:57] Are there different tiers?

[00:24:59] Perpetual license.

[00:25:00] No, yeah, I think there's WaveLab and then WaveLab Pro, and the Pro is like $400, I think.

[00:25:07] That's not bad.

[00:25:08] Okay, so that's not bad, but it's more than some of the other DAWs out there.

[00:25:13] It's not subscription, you own it.

[00:25:15] Oh, okay.

[00:25:16] Well, so that's another thing that we could touch on here is the whole subscription model of DAWs

[00:25:23] and whether or not that's beneficial and, you know, aside from, I mean, what?

[00:25:32] Like, so I'm on Netflix and I have YouTube Music and a bunch of other subscriptions.

[00:25:39] But when it comes to my music making, I do not like subscriptions at all.

[00:25:44] I don't want to have my DAW on a subscription, my plugins.

[00:25:48] No, no thank you.

[00:25:50] I've been there before.

[00:25:51] No, so if you stop paying, so if you decide that...

[00:25:52] Yeah, and everything stops working.

[00:25:54] Exactly.

[00:25:54] So that song you recorded today, you can't listen to tomorrow because you haven't paid your subscription.

[00:25:58] No.

[00:25:58] Right.

[00:25:59] And to me, that is not conducive to creativity and, yeah, nothing.

[00:26:07] And I think studios...

[00:26:08] I will say...

[00:26:09] Oh, sorry.

[00:26:09] I was going to say, I think Personas have done a good job, actually, on that.

[00:26:12] But if you cancel your Studio One, whatever, Personas One, you get to keep forever the last

[00:26:20] version that you had when your subscription ended.

[00:26:24] So it's...

[00:26:24] That's new as of...

[00:26:26] Yeah.

[00:26:27] ...like this last update for version seven.

[00:26:29] Before, people complained because they didn't pay or, you know, their payment didn't go through

[00:26:35] and some other stuff is locked.

[00:26:36] So if I cancel my subscription right now, like, I'll get to keep Studio One the way it is right now?

[00:26:42] Yeah, seven forever.

[00:26:43] Well, I haven't even updated it to it.

[00:26:45] Yeah.

[00:26:46] So when you upgrade to seven, if you stop paying, if you don't pay for, you know, the next year,

[00:26:53] you'll keep whatever you have at that version.

[00:26:56] I don't believe you'll get any updates or anything like that, but you'll have it.

[00:27:00] It'll be sort of a long time.

[00:27:01] Yeah, at a long time.

[00:27:01] Because honestly, there is a benefit to having the subscription in a sense that, like, I don't

[00:27:06] want to pay, oh, I need this plugin or, oh, I need that plugin.

[00:27:10] Oh, I see other people with these fancier versions and they have all the plugins, but if you pay

[00:27:14] for that one price, you get all the plugins, right?

[00:27:18] And so you get a suite of plugins that you can...

[00:27:20] Which could be a dangerous thing, too, because you could go down the rabbit hole with that.

[00:27:24] Do you need all those plugins?

[00:27:26] You probably don't, but it is nice to be able to say, hey, if I wanted to...

[00:27:32] use this compressor or whatever, I wanted to test out a new compressor.

[00:27:35] Why not?

[00:27:36] Yeah.

[00:27:37] But you could also go down the rabbit hole with that and never get anything completed

[00:27:41] because you're basically looking at different plugins.

[00:27:44] But, you know.

[00:27:45] I've started to treat plugins like pieces of hardware.

[00:27:48] Do I...

[00:27:49] If I'm going to buy it...

[00:27:51] Mm-hmm.

[00:27:52] Yeah.

[00:27:53] Then it's like the bit of hardware.

[00:27:54] I need to buy the one that I want, not 10 different versions of it because I'm only buying

[00:28:00] the one that I want.

[00:28:01] And I always found I use the same few plugins over and over again anyway.

[00:28:05] Yeah, of course you do.

[00:28:06] Because you're used to it and you know it and you're like, hey, I get great results

[00:28:09] from this, so...

[00:28:10] I stick to the sort of 10 or 20.

[00:28:12] Oh, shit.

[00:28:13] I don't really go beyond that.

[00:28:15] So that was my journey.

[00:28:17] Come on, we need to do someone else's.

[00:28:18] I'm dying to hear everybody's...

[00:28:20] Neil.

[00:28:20] Neil, come on.

[00:28:20] Where do we start?

[00:28:22] Well, okay.

[00:28:22] So in about 2001, 2000, I was in a Christian rock band and we wanted to record the songs

[00:28:31] that we had.

[00:28:33] And my guitarist in the band, he had Cubase.

[00:28:40] And it was on a dinky computer and we spent a Saturday at the church and we recorded.

[00:28:47] And he spent, I think, about three months trying to piece it together and mix it.

[00:28:52] And I went over and I watched him do it.

[00:28:54] And I was like, man, this is really cool.

[00:28:56] It's all digital.

[00:28:57] No tape, none of that.

[00:28:59] That was in 2001.

[00:29:00] But I was still more just interested in playing out.

[00:29:03] And then I got married and all that stuff.

[00:29:04] So I didn't, you know, got away from music.

[00:29:07] But then I wanted to record a song and I wanted to know how to do it.

[00:29:13] And so I saw that there was an M-Audio interface for sale at Guitar Center and it came with

[00:29:22] Pro Tools SE.

[00:29:24] I don't know if you know what Pro Tools SE is.

[00:29:27] It is the...

[00:29:27] Yeah, like there's Pro Tools intro now.

[00:29:30] This was worse.

[00:29:33] There was no mix window.

[00:29:34] This was worse.

[00:29:36] This was worse.

[00:29:36] There was no faders, no mix window.

[00:29:39] You only had the edit window.

[00:29:42] And you only had eight tracks.

[00:29:45] And one of them, only one of them could be an instrument track.

[00:29:49] And I recorded the shit out of that.

[00:29:52] I learned...

[00:29:53] And it was Pro Tools.

[00:29:55] It was Pro Tools.

[00:29:56] And I was looking online and I found Graham Cochran.

[00:29:59] He was also using Pro Tools, his recording revolution.

[00:30:03] And five minutes or to a better mix, that series really hooked me.

[00:30:07] And I was like, oh, I want to know how to do that.

[00:30:09] Oh, I want to be able to do that.

[00:30:10] And I recorded as much as I could, even if it sounded like shit, I didn't care.

[00:30:15] I was in a walk-in closet.

[00:30:17] That was my studio.

[00:30:18] I was hanging up mattress foam or whatever, just to kind of deaden it.

[00:30:26] And there was...

[00:30:26] Those like egg crate mattress pads.

[00:30:28] Yeah, the yellow ones.

[00:30:31] And it was fun.

[00:30:33] And that was my first experience.

[00:30:36] So, it was Pro Tools SE.

[00:30:40] And then I got a little bit of money and I was like, I really want to upgrade because I want actual features.

[00:30:46] I wanted to be able to actually...

[00:30:48] Do stuff?

[00:30:48] Yeah.

[00:30:49] I want actual features.

[00:30:51] I want actually to be able to do stuff.

[00:30:53] So, it was...

[00:30:55] And here was the thing.

[00:30:56] It was...

[00:30:56] Pro Tools at the time, I think, was 700 bucks.

[00:30:59] That's expensive as hell.

[00:31:00] That's prohibitively expensive.

[00:31:02] Yes.

[00:31:02] But it was the only doll I knew.

[00:31:05] But I'm a teacher.

[00:31:08] So, there was an educator discount.

[00:31:11] So, I got Pro Tools for $399.

[00:31:14] Which is way easier to swallow than $700.

[00:31:18] That's too much.

[00:31:20] Especially back in 2000 and...

[00:31:22] I don't even remember when it was.

[00:31:23] 12, 11.

[00:31:25] I don't remember when.

[00:31:27] But I think it was Pro Tools 7 or 8 was the first one that...

[00:31:32] I learned and...

[00:31:34] Still following the recording revolution.

[00:31:36] Found Joe.

[00:31:37] And I know that Joe uses Studio One.

[00:31:41] I still couldn't...

[00:31:42] Like, I could see what he was doing.

[00:31:44] And it was the same things that I could do in Pro Tools.

[00:31:47] And I know Studio One has these really cool features that Pro Tools doesn't.

[00:31:53] But I always felt like whenever I was using Pro Tools, I felt more musical with it.

[00:32:00] I felt like I was in...

[00:32:03] It was the one that gave me the most feel of...

[00:32:05] I'm a mix engineer.

[00:32:07] I'm a producer.

[00:32:11] I felt the most musical with Pro Tools.

[00:32:14] And maybe it was because I used it the longest and the most.

[00:32:17] And I really understood and learned all the ins and outs of it.

[00:32:22] I can create a bus.

[00:32:23] I know it takes a few more clicks to do extra stuff.

[00:32:28] Like, I love the feature in Studio One where you can just click solo and it solos that chain or whatever.

[00:32:35] And you can't do that in Pro Tools.

[00:32:37] At least, I don't know.

[00:32:38] Maybe you can now.

[00:32:40] But things like that, I didn't care that I was just clicking buttons.

[00:32:44] It still felt musical to me.

[00:32:48] And so...

[00:32:50] But I don't use a Mac.

[00:32:55] And Pro Tools works best on a fucking Mac.

[00:33:02] And so...

[00:33:03] Not only are you paying a lot for your DAW, you're also paying a lot for your computer.

[00:33:09] So there's a high cost of entry into that world for sure.

[00:33:14] Yeah.

[00:33:14] And I was into also building my own computers, which is why I don't use an Apple computer.

[00:33:21] Because you can't build an Apple computer.

[00:33:24] But the problem was is every time Windows would do an update, Pro Tools would quit working.

[00:33:30] Or Pro Tools would start crashing.

[00:33:32] Pro Tools, it frustrated me.

[00:33:35] And I remember complaining to Joe, like, oh!

[00:33:38] And Joe was like, just switch to Studio One.

[00:33:41] I don't want to.

[00:33:44] Yeah, it's never as easy as just dot, dot, dot.

[00:33:47] I get it.

[00:33:48] The learning curve is always huge.

[00:33:49] Yeah.

[00:33:50] Yeah.

[00:33:50] And I was able, with an educator discount back then, I don't remember which Studio One version it was.

[00:33:57] I think it was two.

[00:33:59] I was able to get it for like 70 bucks.

[00:34:02] The professional one.

[00:34:03] The one that's normally like $2.99.

[00:34:05] Yeah.

[00:34:06] I think.

[00:34:06] So I was able to get that.

[00:34:08] And I was like, well...

[00:34:08] No, I think I got it for 50 bucks.

[00:34:10] I can't remember.

[00:34:11] One of those.

[00:34:12] Either 50 or 70.

[00:34:13] And I was like, well, why not?

[00:34:14] Right?

[00:34:15] It was a Christmas sale or something like that.

[00:34:16] And I had the educator discount.

[00:34:18] So I got it.

[00:34:19] And I was like, okay, I'll play around with it.

[00:34:21] And I switched to it for a while.

[00:34:24] And I didn't feel as musical with it.

[00:34:27] That's the thing.

[00:34:28] Like, when you choose your DAW, you gotta feel like...

[00:34:32] You gotta feel musical with it.

[00:34:36] Does that make sense?

[00:34:36] I don't know how to describe it.

[00:34:37] Like, I feel like...

[00:34:39] Well, there's...

[00:34:40] If you're uncomfortable with the workflow, it impedes your creativity.

[00:34:46] And therefore, you don't...

[00:34:47] Yeah.

[00:34:48] You're not...

[00:34:49] You're not flowing with everything like you are with the DAW that you are just...

[00:34:55] You know, you could navigate with your eyes closed, basically.

[00:34:59] Yeah.

[00:34:59] And that's different for everybody, right?

[00:35:01] Because that was my problem with logic.

[00:35:04] My brain just went, nah.

[00:35:07] Yeah.

[00:35:08] Which is hilarious because I feel like logic is the...

[00:35:12] Like, is closer to the workflow in Studio One than it is to Pro Tools.

[00:35:19] Really?

[00:35:20] Yeah.

[00:35:20] It feels like a Pro Tools clone to me.

[00:35:23] Now, I don't...

[00:35:24] I don't know.

[00:35:25] I mean, you've got the inspector.

[00:35:26] You've got...

[00:35:27] Like, I've noticed there's a lot of things, similarity, that maybe they drew from each other

[00:35:32] when they were creating...

[00:35:33] Like, the inspector window, that is definitely logic and Studio One have that.

[00:35:38] And so in Cubase.

[00:35:40] Just...

[00:35:41] Oh, there you go.

[00:35:41] Yeah.

[00:35:42] That's not a Pro Tools thing.

[00:35:45] So...

[00:35:46] But...

[00:35:47] And then for a while there, I decided to switch back to Pro Tools.

[00:35:52] And they came out with that whole subscription model.

[00:35:56] And Pro Tools worked with Windows 10 for a while.

[00:36:00] It was good.

[00:36:01] And then it wasn't.

[00:36:03] And then it started to crash again.

[00:36:04] And then it started to...

[00:36:06] Ah.

[00:36:07] And the whole...

[00:36:09] What is that?

[00:36:11] Low key or whatever?

[00:36:15] The USB thing that you have to plug into your computer to make Pro Tools work.

[00:36:20] What is that called?

[00:36:22] The iLock.

[00:36:24] iLock.

[00:36:24] That's what it's called.

[00:36:25] I freaking hate that thing.

[00:36:28] The iLock.

[00:36:29] It would always be like, oh, you got to sign in in order for it to work.

[00:36:33] And it just didn't work well.

[00:36:35] That also didn't work well with Windows machines.

[00:36:38] But anyways.

[00:36:39] So I fired up Studio One recently.

[00:36:44] A couple years ago.

[00:36:46] I fired it up again.

[00:36:47] And it worked perfectly.

[00:36:48] It fires up and loads up on Windows machines just like that.

[00:36:54] And so now I'm currently back on Studio One.

[00:37:02] I may switch back one day.

[00:37:05] I'm not going to lie.

[00:37:07] I may switch back.

[00:37:08] Only because I just feel so much more comfortable doing work in Pro Tools.

[00:37:15] And I did mention that I'm Apple Logic Pro certified.

[00:37:18] But that's because I taught the class at Clearwater High.

[00:37:21] And so I had to get certified for it.

[00:37:25] But I'm Apple Logic Pro certified.

[00:37:27] And I've never used Apple Logic for anything that I've ever put out there.

[00:37:34] But it's a really cool DAW.

[00:37:35] Especially with...

[00:37:36] Oh, I also forgot to mention they have Apple Loops.

[00:37:40] Those are fun to play with.

[00:37:41] I know GarageBand has those too.

[00:37:44] GarageBand is Logic Pro Lite.

[00:37:47] Yeah.

[00:37:49] And iPad.

[00:37:51] And if I...

[00:37:53] Yeah.

[00:37:54] Yeah.

[00:37:55] That's another version.

[00:37:56] With the new versions of Logic, it does give you that ability to run Logic on your iPad.

[00:38:01] I think on your phone.

[00:38:02] That's cool.

[00:38:03] Yeah.

[00:38:05] GarageBand was plenty effective on your iPad for, you know, sort of like idea.

[00:38:11] Yeah.

[00:38:11] Type stuff.

[00:38:13] You know, I have an iPad.

[00:38:15] And plenty of times when I was commuting back and forth to work back in, you know, in the before days of the pandemic.

[00:38:21] When I actually had to like go to work.

[00:38:22] Go out of the house.

[00:38:23] I would sit on the train.

[00:38:24] And I would, you know, play with the little keyboard and my fingers and guitar strums.

[00:38:29] And just sort of like just get some ideas down as I was riding the train.

[00:38:32] And good enough to just capture what I was thinking.

[00:38:36] Because I certainly couldn't hum anything.

[00:38:39] The noise of the train would have drowned that out.

[00:38:41] So I would craft ideas and riffs in GarageBand and then take them home and work on them some more.

[00:38:50] And it was great for that.

[00:38:51] I thought GarageBand was fantastic for that very task.

[00:38:55] I know a lot of people have done more in GarageBand than that.

[00:38:58] But I think a lot of the YouTubers that we've followed have done videos on.

[00:39:03] I recorded this song only in GarageBand on my phone.

[00:39:07] Yeah.

[00:39:08] And I mean, what they've done, what they can do is incredible with GarageBand.

[00:39:13] I never fully realized any of that.

[00:39:17] But yeah, what I've heard coming out of GarageBand is just pretty impressive.

[00:39:22] Yeah.

[00:39:23] So Neil's another one then that's been around houses.

[00:39:27] Yeah.

[00:39:27] Back again.

[00:39:28] Back to the beginning.

[00:39:29] Done something else.

[00:39:30] Two out of three.

[00:39:31] Not had a straightforward journey.

[00:39:34] How are we doing, Nate?

[00:39:35] Is this going to be straight down the line?

[00:39:38] Picked a door.

[00:39:38] Loved it.

[00:39:39] Stay with it forever.

[00:39:42] I don't know.

[00:39:43] Let's find out.

[00:39:45] Come on then.

[00:39:46] All right.

[00:39:48] So I started, my very first DAW was, if you could call it a DAW.

[00:39:55] I don't know if anybody remembers Acid Pro.

[00:39:58] Yeah?

[00:39:59] Yeah.

[00:40:00] This would have been around 2001, 2002.

[00:40:04] That would be my first instance of computer music, if you will.

[00:40:11] I didn't have any way to record anything.

[00:40:13] So I was just messing around with loops.

[00:40:16] I was big into house music back in those days.

[00:40:19] So I would just do my own house songs with the baked in loops.

[00:40:25] I didn't record anything.

[00:40:27] I was just loop building.

[00:40:29] But I was also a DJ, both on the radio and at club shows and house shows.

[00:40:34] So I would make, you know, sort of like, sort of transitional loops to go between some

[00:40:40] of my songs or some of my records, rather, that I would mix with when I actually had like

[00:40:46] two turntables and a microphone.

[00:40:49] But I'll...

[00:40:50] Wait, what's that?

[00:40:51] Anyway, sorry about that.

[00:40:53] So yeah, Acid Pro back in like 2001, 2002.

[00:40:57] And I used that for a couple of years.

[00:40:58] And then I was doing the band thing.

[00:41:02] So I kind of stepped away from recording.

[00:41:06] But I played in bands and went to recording studios.

[00:41:10] And I always thought that world was fascinating.

[00:41:13] But it just never, it was never a thing that I thought I could do or wanted to do at that

[00:41:19] point in my life.

[00:41:20] You know, hindsight's always 20-20.

[00:41:23] I wish I could go back and, you know, tap myself on the shoulder and be like, hey, dude.

[00:41:28] Just double down on this.

[00:41:30] Yeah.

[00:41:30] Go back over to the control room and sit down with that guy and talk to him.

[00:41:33] Don't mess around, you know, doing other stuff.

[00:41:37] So yeah, I wish I had maybe taken some more stock in that at that time.

[00:41:43] But anyway, I didn't.

[00:41:45] And here we are.

[00:41:46] So my first interface that I ever bought was a two-channel Mackie interface.

[00:41:53] Nothing great.

[00:41:54] Nothing terrible.

[00:41:55] Just, you know.

[00:41:56] Did the job.

[00:41:57] Yeah, it did the job.

[00:41:58] And it came with a version of Tractor.

[00:42:01] Yeah, yeah.

[00:42:03] Which, I don't, is it around anymore?

[00:42:05] I think it's still around.

[00:42:06] Is it?

[00:42:07] I know it got bought by some other companies and this and that.

[00:42:10] But yeah, it came with a free version of Tractor, which was just miserable to use.

[00:42:15] It was terrible.

[00:42:17] I had no clue how it worked.

[00:42:20] I didn't get it to work very well aside from just recording, you know, a couple of tracks here and there.

[00:42:28] And I could never figure out how to mix it.

[00:42:31] So it was very short-lived.

[00:42:33] And it was free.

[00:42:34] So I was like, whatever, fine.

[00:42:36] Then I found Reaper.

[00:42:38] And that was, you know, a revelation, right?

[00:42:42] Because it was a proper DAW.

[00:42:44] Yeah.

[00:42:45] But again, I found it to be way too advanced for me.

[00:42:48] So it was kind of like the other side of the pendulum, right?

[00:42:51] You know, it was just, it was too much.

[00:42:54] And to your point, Ben, the graphical interface left me lacking.

[00:42:58] You know, like all these plugins did something, but I had no clue what they were doing because there was nothing that told me.

[00:43:05] What they were doing.

[00:43:06] Reaper is a math lecturer doing a music class.

[00:43:11] That's what that is.

[00:43:13] And the sliders, yeah, you know, like it didn't add up what I was seeing on YouTube versus what I was seeing on my screen.

[00:43:21] Just I could not make the two come together.

[00:43:23] And, you know, free plugins back in that day.

[00:43:27] Okay, so this would be around 2015, I think.

[00:43:39] And plugins back then, free plugins were not great.

[00:43:44] There wasn't a lot available.

[00:43:47] And I was piss poor.

[00:43:49] So I could not.

[00:43:53] Certainly Waves was stupid expensive back then.

[00:43:56] Now everything Waves is like buy three for, you know, 100 bucks.

[00:44:01] Always on sale.

[00:44:02] It's always on sale.

[00:44:04] So, yeah, I could not afford any of the premium plugins.

[00:44:07] So I just tried to find everything free I could that looked like what I thought, you know, everything else looked like.

[00:44:14] Like an 1176 or an LA-2A.

[00:44:16] I don't understand why free plugins never looked like the things they were trying to emulate.

[00:44:21] They always came up with these weird GUIs that just didn't make sense.

[00:44:25] It drove me nuts.

[00:44:26] I'm like I just want to find an 1176 that looks like an 1176 so I can do the thing.

[00:44:32] And I could not find one.

[00:44:35] But so I did use Reaper for, I don't know, a year or so.

[00:44:41] And then I found Joe Gilder.

[00:44:45] And I think like literally I was already determined that I was going to find another DAW.

[00:44:53] I just didn't know what it was going to be.

[00:44:55] I found Joe Gilder.

[00:44:56] I probably binged like all of his videos that I could find in a weekend.

[00:45:02] And I think a few days later after I found him, I was like, okay, I'm going to buy Studio One.

[00:45:07] I'm all in.

[00:45:08] Let's go.

[00:45:09] Because the way he talked, the way he taught, it just clicked with me.

[00:45:15] I understood it.

[00:45:16] It resonated with me.

[00:45:17] And what I could see on his screen made absolute sense.

[00:45:20] So, yep, I'll buy Studio One.

[00:45:23] Perfect.

[00:45:25] Great.

[00:45:26] And I stuck with that for, well, I'm still with that.

[00:45:30] So.

[00:45:31] Never look back.

[00:45:31] I bought it in 2016 and I'm still with Studio One.

[00:45:36] I think I went in on version three was the first one.

[00:45:39] And I'm with version six.

[00:45:40] Version seven just came out.

[00:45:42] I have not upgraded yet for a couple of reasons, which I won't go into here.

[00:45:47] But I, right now, I don't plan on leaving Studio One, but I can see why some people might.

[00:45:59] And that is, you know, everyone has their own reasons, obviously.

[00:46:04] I think that with the latest upgrades with version seven, they really focused a lot of their effort on beat makers and producers.

[00:46:16] Which I consider myself a producer, but I'm more, I think I'm a mixing engineer first and a producer second.

[00:46:24] I don't know.

[00:46:25] I'm not sure.

[00:46:26] But I don't, I don't make MIDI music.

[00:46:31] So that's where a lot of the focus has been in Studio One's updates is beat makers and MIDI.

[00:46:39] And I do neither of those things.

[00:46:41] So especially the new features in version seven from a mixing perspective don't have any real benefit to me right away.

[00:46:51] Maybe down the road, but right now, no real benefit.

[00:46:56] So no real need to upgrade.

[00:46:58] I will upgrade at some point, but no need to do it right now.

[00:47:03] Now, to that point, I can see why some people might decide to leave Studio One because there hasn't been a lot of mixing improvements over the last couple of incremental versions.

[00:47:15] I won't say major releases, but over the last couple of incremental versions, even going back into the early days of six and the later days of five, you know, there's been some improvements, but not a lot.

[00:47:27] And are there bits that's missing?

[00:47:30] Because you could argue it doesn't need any improvements if the mixing.

[00:47:35] No, it's solid.

[00:47:36] What would you change about the mixing?

[00:47:39] Like if you were to say, hey, Studio One, you know what, you haven't really improved the mixing in a while.

[00:47:47] Could you improve such and such?

[00:47:49] What would you say?

[00:47:51] Well, I do have contacts over there at Personas.

[00:47:56] And don't you run like the Ohio?

[00:47:59] I do run the meetups once a month, which, you know, open invitation.

[00:48:04] If anyone wants to join us for the Ohio meetups or any of the other meetups, go to, I think it's events.personas.com or hit them up on their Facebook page and you can see which meetup is happening in your area, both online and in person.

[00:48:18] I run the Ohio meetup, which is every third Thursday of every month.

[00:48:23] So feel free to join us there.

[00:48:28] Mixing improvements, I think there's just a couple of things more graphical based than not.

[00:48:40] Well, I guess I don't know if there would be any, if I have any improvements.

[00:48:46] So maybe that's not a good reason for me to say that then.

[00:48:53] It's interesting, isn't it?

[00:48:54] Because it's one of those...

[00:48:56] It just feels like it hasn't been improved.

[00:48:57] It just changes.

[00:48:58] It changes.

[00:48:59] Yeah.

[00:48:59] But it's solid, so I don't know.

[00:49:01] But I will say that's one of the things that I gripe about with Studio One is I feel like the look of it, like I love Pro Tools because I feel like I can see the...

[00:49:14] Maybe it's just me because I'm used to it.

[00:49:16] The grid with the wave, with the tracks and everything, it just looks so inviting and I can go in and play with it.

[00:49:26] And when I jump into Studio One, it just...

[00:49:29] To me, I can play around with the settings as much as I can and it feels dull to me.

[00:49:36] But to me, it's a look factor.

[00:49:39] But maybe it's because I'm used to Pro Tools and I feel like that...

[00:49:44] I don't know.

[00:49:45] So this is a great point for me.

[00:49:47] Neil's just raised a great point.

[00:49:48] This comes onto the...

[00:49:49] But they're all the same, right?

[00:49:51] They're not.

[00:49:53] One will make you feel...

[00:49:56] For me, right?

[00:49:57] Logic.

[00:49:58] I've got nothing against how it looks.

[00:50:00] I've got nothing against anything to do with it.

[00:50:02] Doesn't work for me.

[00:50:04] Can't tell you why.

[00:50:05] Cannot put my finger on it.

[00:50:06] It does not work for me.

[00:50:08] So, yes, they're all the same.

[00:50:10] They record noughts and ones when you record stuff into them.

[00:50:13] And they're all the same.

[00:50:16] But they're not.

[00:50:18] The subtlety in their workflow...

[00:50:21] Yes.

[00:50:21] There's been people on Facebook posts.

[00:50:24] I know, obviously, in the Studio One Facebook groups.

[00:50:28] Where they've said, well, the mixing engine, the rendering engine sounds different in Pro Tools than it does in Studio One.

[00:50:34] Which is just ridiculous.

[00:50:36] Because...

[00:50:37] Even if it does, right?

[00:50:39] It's not going to make your song sound better.

[00:50:41] But even if they somehow do, the way their digital to audio conversion works is subtly different.

[00:50:48] It's not different enough that anyone who's listening to your song is going to know.

[00:50:53] Going to know.

[00:50:53] No, because a Nate Helms mix is going to be a Nate.

[00:50:57] A Nate.

[00:50:58] Exactly.

[00:50:59] A Ben Holmes master is going to be a Ben.

[00:51:02] Correct.

[00:51:02] Right?

[00:51:03] Exactly.

[00:51:03] That is not to say...

[00:51:05] So, if we just accept that they may or may not render subtly differently, no one's going to know.

[00:51:12] No one's going to know.

[00:51:13] So, that's irrelevant, really.

[00:51:14] Because no one's going to go, oh, they did that in Logic Pro 10.

[00:51:18] Right?

[00:51:19] That's not how that's going to work.

[00:51:21] Why did I instantly say Kermit the Frog?

[00:51:24] Yeah, I don't know where that came from.

[00:51:26] We probably...

[00:51:26] That will be immediately demonetized.

[00:51:28] Kermit's British cousin.

[00:51:30] British cousin.

[00:51:31] Oh, shit.

[00:51:34] I've forgotten my...

[00:51:35] But, yes.

[00:51:36] But they are not all the same.

[00:51:38] They work differently.

[00:51:39] Their workflows are different.

[00:51:40] Yeah.

[00:51:41] The way they handle the representation of MIDI or the way the sends work or the way the soloing works.

[00:51:50] So, you can do the...

[00:51:52] They all work slightly differently.

[00:51:55] And I think some do some things better than others.

[00:52:00] I think that's genuinely true.

[00:52:02] I think there's a reason why Pro Tools is standard in most recording studios.

[00:52:09] And that is because it is geared at recording audio into the box.

[00:52:15] And it's probably geared at doing that from a big console where you've got channels coming in.

[00:52:20] It records everything together.

[00:52:21] That's its bread and butter.

[00:52:23] That's where it grew up.

[00:52:23] Mm-hmm.

[00:52:25] Is Pro Tools the best at doing MIDI arrangements?

[00:52:28] I would probably guarantee you it's not.

[00:52:30] Right?

[00:52:31] So, they're not all the same.

[00:52:32] There are people that use it for that.

[00:52:34] But...

[00:52:34] Sure, there are.

[00:52:35] I've done it too.

[00:52:36] Yeah.

[00:52:37] I'm sure it does it.

[00:52:39] Does some of them do it better than others?

[00:52:41] Definitely.

[00:52:42] Yeah.

[00:52:42] Absolutely.

[00:52:42] And that's the thing for me.

[00:52:44] That when people say to me, which door should I use?

[00:52:47] And I used to flippantly...

[00:52:48] We'll come back to the beginning.

[00:52:49] And I used to flippantly say, whichever one you want.

[00:52:51] I've started to change that and say, what is it that you're doing?

[00:52:56] Because I think that is a better starting point than anything you want.

[00:53:02] Any of them that you want.

[00:53:03] Because if somebody said to me, my band record everything live and I want to mix it, I'd probably say, Studio One, really good for that.

[00:53:15] Pro Tools, really good for that.

[00:53:19] Now, I think Cubase is...

[00:53:22] I've fallen in love a bit with Cubase, but it's new, so let's not go there.

[00:53:26] And if somebody said to me, oh, I just want to sit at home and record loops, get Ableton.

[00:53:31] Get Ableton Live.

[00:53:34] Go down that route.

[00:53:35] You know, so I think there are some that are better than others that's doing certain things.

[00:53:39] But what I'd also say is they all do trials.

[00:53:42] And if you've already bought one, they pretty much all do cross-migration licenses.

[00:53:48] So I know that when I got my Cubase license, it said, do you have any other DAW?

[00:53:53] And I said, oh, yeah, I've got a full pro version of Studio One.

[00:53:55] And it went, oh, $130.

[00:53:57] Did they make you surrender that license?

[00:53:59] Nope.

[00:54:00] They just...

[00:54:01] Wow.

[00:54:01] You prove you've got one.

[00:54:02] So I had to send them the email with me buying Studio One.

[00:54:06] And they went, yeah, $137, whatever it is, because you've got a cross-migration license.

[00:54:11] That's cool.

[00:54:12] So that's so cool compared to when we first started.

[00:54:16] Yeah.

[00:54:16] Like the trial versions or whatever that came with your digital audio or the...

[00:54:22] Interface.

[00:54:23] The interface, yeah.

[00:54:23] They were awful.

[00:54:25] God-awful.

[00:54:26] And they didn't give you like a real snapshot of what the program...

[00:54:30] Like Pro Tools SE, when I first started using it, that's awful.

[00:54:35] It was awful.

[00:54:36] It crashed.

[00:54:37] It was buggy.

[00:54:39] Hard to work.

[00:54:40] It didn't even have a mix window, right?

[00:54:43] Now, if you want to start on Pro Tools, there's a free version of it.

[00:54:48] And it's useful.

[00:54:49] And you can use it.

[00:54:50] And I think you get like...

[00:54:52] I don't even know how many tracks, but you definitely get plenty of tracks to work with and to try it out.

[00:55:00] Whereas, back in the day, you didn't have that.

[00:55:02] And now you're saying, like, if you've got a full version of one DAW and you want to try another one, you got that cross...

[00:55:09] Well, I mean, most of them do free trial.

[00:55:12] Like, Cubase, you can download Cubase Pro for free for 30 days, I think it is.

[00:55:17] Just try it.

[00:55:18] If you don't like it, uninstall it.

[00:55:20] Your license will expire.

[00:55:21] That's the end of it.

[00:55:22] I think most of them have started to do that.

[00:55:24] And so my advice is, think about what you're trying to do.

[00:55:30] You know, if you're...

[00:55:32] I know Bob Ellis, another one of our friends.

[00:55:34] He's Cubase all the way through.

[00:55:37] Writes in Cubase, mixes in Cubase, MIDI in Cubase.

[00:55:40] And, I mean, we've heard his stuff, right?

[00:55:42] His MIDI arrangements are crazy.

[00:55:43] But he's a MIDI guy.

[00:55:45] And Cubase is...

[00:55:46] You know, that's his thing.

[00:55:49] And one of the reasons I tried it, actually, you know, after talking to Bob.

[00:55:52] So I think, you know, that's the thing, right?

[00:55:56] So decide what it is you're doing.

[00:55:57] If you're a singer-songwriter at home recording your voice with an acoustic guitar,

[00:56:02] that's very different to you want to program loops and program sequencing and...

[00:56:08] Yeah, and if honestly, if you're only recording a couple of tracks because you're a singer-songwriter

[00:56:13] and you're just trying to get your music out there, there's so many free apps now.

[00:56:16] And there's also free versions of the programs, like the Pro Tools one, the Studio One, the free version.

[00:56:23] All of these DAWs.

[00:56:24] The free version of Studio One no longer exists, actually.

[00:56:28] Oh, it doesn't?

[00:56:28] As a version 7.

[00:56:29] That is correct, yeah.

[00:56:30] I did not know that.

[00:56:31] So that is...

[00:56:32] Some people were upset about that.

[00:56:34] And I could see why.

[00:56:36] There's no sort of light or SE version.

[00:56:38] No, it is pro.

[00:56:40] That is it.

[00:56:41] It's just pro.

[00:56:42] I don't think that's a good idea.

[00:56:44] Especially with the comment.

[00:56:45] But I see that they're also trying to compete with Ableton with what you're saying,

[00:56:49] with all the loops and the...

[00:56:52] Yeah.

[00:56:53] Well, because they readjusted how their licensor works,

[00:57:00] I think they saw a reason to push people onto Pro

[00:57:04] and not offer the two light versions that they did before.

[00:57:08] Because you could pay for Pro for one year.

[00:57:11] And then if you don't want to pay for any more upgrades for three years,

[00:57:14] you could freeze it at that and keep using it.

[00:57:16] No problem.

[00:57:17] And then when you're ready, you pay again.

[00:57:20] And you can download the newest version and keep going.

[00:57:23] And then stop it and just keep on locked in that version.

[00:57:26] So I can kind of see their reasoning there.

[00:57:29] Because they're giving you potentially that application for one price forever.

[00:57:35] Yeah.

[00:57:36] Right?

[00:57:37] So, I don't know.

[00:57:38] Now, I will say, one sort of like last point before we wrap up here,

[00:57:43] is the new guys on the scene.

[00:57:48] And it's not totally new, but for Windows users, it's new.

[00:57:52] And it's free.

[00:57:54] And that is Universal Audio Luna.

[00:57:58] I don't know if you guys have ever messed with it before.

[00:58:01] I have not.

[00:58:02] Do you have to have a Universal Audio interface?

[00:58:05] Not anymore.

[00:58:06] You do not.

[00:58:07] Yeah.

[00:58:08] It used to be when Luna first got introduced,

[00:58:10] you had to have an Apollo hardware and a Mac.

[00:58:15] It was Mac only.

[00:58:17] And as of earlier this year, I want to say like March or April of this year,

[00:58:26] it changed to Mac and Windows.

[00:58:29] And you do not have to have Universal Audio hardware anymore.

[00:58:33] So I know the benefits of Universal Audio.

[00:58:36] There are great interfaces.

[00:58:37] Yeah.

[00:58:38] But what is different about their audio interface, their DAW?

[00:58:42] Or not their audio.

[00:58:43] Their digital audio workstation.

[00:58:45] Yeah.

[00:58:46] Yeah.

[00:58:46] So the biggest difference with Luna is it is – if you have worked with Apollo in the past,

[00:58:54] it looks like the console that you're used to with Apollo.

[00:58:58] So it's designed to look like – very much look like and work like an actual console,

[00:59:07] an actual mixing board, a desk.

[00:59:09] It basically has your channels in line from top to bottom.

[00:59:13] You know, your input, your gain, your inserts, EQ, all that jazz, straight down to the fader.

[00:59:22] Right?

[00:59:22] And it's designed to work in the real world like a mixing console.

[00:59:27] It does its own internal summing in either a Neve or an API style.

[00:59:33] So you get that sort of flavor, if you will, as opposed to not having any sort of emulated analog summing.

[00:59:45] It also integrates really – well, it integrates 100% with its native application, its native plugins.

[00:59:52] Because that's when it rolled out into the Windows world is when they introduced their native versions of some of their plugins.

[01:00:01] Which is why you don't have to have universal audio hardware anymore.

[01:00:04] Because anybody can run these now, regardless of if you have their hardware.

[01:00:10] It sounds a little bit like the Harrison Mixbus concept.

[01:00:15] Yeah.

[01:00:15] It's very similar to that.

[01:00:17] I don't have any experience with Harrison Mixbus, but I've heard plenty about it.

[01:00:21] And yeah, I would say that you could draw some comparisons between those two.

[01:00:26] I've played with Harrison Mixbus.

[01:00:28] For me, if all you do is mixing, it could be really good.

[01:00:32] Because it's like mixing on a Harrison console.

[01:00:36] Yeah.

[01:00:37] It's simple as that.

[01:00:38] It's designed to feel like a Harrison console.

[01:00:41] Which is about SSL now, right?

[01:00:42] SSL bought Harrison.

[01:00:43] Yeah, I think so.

[01:00:44] Yeah.

[01:00:45] And it does audio summing, like you say.

[01:00:47] And it's got the flavor of their transformers and everything.

[01:00:51] Right.

[01:00:52] I can't imagine recording in it.

[01:00:55] It sounds like a very niche.

[01:00:57] Can you record in it?

[01:00:58] I believe it's a fully functional DAW where you can record and edit.

[01:01:03] But to me, when I look at it, I go, it's a mixing console.

[01:01:07] Well, maybe that's the strong point of it.

[01:01:09] It's really for mixing.

[01:01:10] And they just have recording in there because you kind of have to.

[01:01:13] But that wasn't its purpose.

[01:01:15] I don't know.

[01:01:16] That's a good point.

[01:01:17] But I would say if somebody just has their acoustic guitar in their voice or electric guitar or bass or something, you're just getting ideas down.

[01:01:28] Luna is a good thing to maybe look at.

[01:01:30] Because, A, it's free.

[01:01:31] It's cross-platform, Mac or PC.

[01:01:34] You don't have to have universal audio hardware anymore.

[01:01:37] And I believe you can sign up for, and I'm not trying to pitch them as a commercial here.

[01:01:43] But you can get, if you download it, I think you can get their native applications, their native plugins for like 99 cents for the first, I don't know, three months or something like that.

[01:01:55] Which is a slam and good deal.

[01:01:59] So, certainly something that you should check out.

[01:02:01] Do they have plugins that are like just their standard plugins that come with it?

[01:02:07] Or is it, do you have to have?

[01:02:10] I think you get a couple of plugins if you download it.

[01:02:14] Like if you download the free version?

[01:02:15] Yeah, I think you get like two or three free plugins.

[01:02:18] I'm not 100% sure.

[01:02:19] So, don't anybody hold me to that.

[01:02:22] But that's the whole point of their native offerings now is that you can buy into those.

[01:02:27] And it's a subscription service too.

[01:02:29] So, you could just subscribe to those plugins and pay.

[01:02:32] I don't know how much the subscription is per month.

[01:02:34] But, I mean, they're the universal audio plugins that everyone raves about.

[01:02:39] So, they are, I don't know, what's better than world class?

[01:02:43] Like universal class?

[01:02:44] I don't know.

[01:02:46] They're really, really, really good plugins.

[01:02:49] So, you're not dealing with, you know, dubious emulations and this and that.

[01:02:55] No, you're dealing with the real deal.

[01:02:58] So, if you're looking, if you're in the market, it's something to potentially, you know, try out.

[01:03:04] Because the barrier to entry is zero.

[01:03:08] It's free.

[01:03:10] And it doesn't require an iLock, right?

[01:03:14] No, it does actually.

[01:03:16] Yeah, it'll be cloud iLock these days.

[01:03:18] It does require iLock, yeah.

[01:03:21] Do you know what?

[01:03:22] I hear lots of problems with iLock.

[01:03:23] I've never had one day's problem with iLock.

[01:03:28] I've never had an issue with iLock.

[01:03:29] Now, I'm knocking on my wood desk here.

[01:03:32] But I have zero issues with iLock.

[01:03:35] It is rock solid.

[01:03:37] But, I mean, I think the one time that I had a problem, my USB went out on my computer.

[01:03:43] And I had to reboot it.

[01:03:44] And then it was fine.

[01:03:45] My favorite is when it's like, oh, yeah, we're just not going to recognize the iLock today.

[01:03:50] Sorry.

[01:03:51] Must be a Windows thing.

[01:03:53] It probably is.

[01:03:54] I mean, I'm on Windows and it's rock solid.

[01:03:56] So, I don't know, man.

[01:03:59] I have two iLocks and a cloud account.

[01:04:03] And no issue.

[01:04:05] I think it's the Pro Tools thing.

[01:04:08] I think a lot of it was the Pro Tools.

[01:04:10] Well, Pro Tools was notoriously buggy in Windows.

[01:04:13] So, that was probably the majority of your issue there.

[01:04:19] Yeah.

[01:04:19] I mean, iLock did mess up a few times.

[01:04:22] So, you know, I'm not going to blame it 100% on Pro Tools.

[01:04:25] But Pro Tools, yeah, buggy as hell.

[01:04:28] Yeah.

[01:04:29] So, come on.

[01:04:30] Let's sum up then.

[01:04:31] What have we learned this evening?

[01:04:33] I think we've learned that we haven't talked about the 82 other DAWs that are available for you to peruse.

[01:04:39] Well, I mean, I can't talk about things I don't have any experience with.

[01:04:44] We'd love your comments.

[01:04:45] Which one do you use and why?

[01:04:46] That would definitely be a good.

[01:04:48] Send us an email.

[01:04:49] We'd love to hear from that.

[01:04:50] Let us know what you use and why, what you like, what you don't like.

[01:04:56] I'd love to do a part two on this and actually get some subject matter experts on this.

[01:05:02] What are you saying?

[01:05:04] What did you just say about us?

[01:05:06] Well, you know, we're hacks, man.

[01:05:08] I'm like, we're literally making up as we go along.

[01:05:12] Yeah.

[01:05:13] As we have them from day one.

[01:05:14] We're just winging it here.

[01:05:14] I mean, let's get somebody from each of the major players to come on the show and talk about their DAW.

[01:05:22] You've got connections with Studio One?

[01:05:24] I can get somebody from Personas on here.

[01:05:26] I'm sure that'll be easy.

[01:05:27] I wonder if the DAW...

[01:05:29] Avid, I don't know about that.

[01:05:30] I wonder if those companies actually think their DAWs are good at one bit compared to the others.

[01:05:36] Or whether or not they do all of it.

[01:05:38] There's what they have to say and then there's what they think, right?

[01:05:42] Yeah.

[01:05:43] Yeah.

[01:05:44] But I bet you, like, hey, we've got this feature and our digital audio workstation is great for people who are doing A and B, blah, blah, blah.

[01:05:54] I mean, if I was talking with somebody at, say, the NAMM convention in January and I was, you know, talking with the head of or the person who represented Avid and Pro Tools and I said, is your DAW the best DAW?

[01:06:11] And if they tell me point blank yes, I absolutely wouldn't believe them because that is not true.

[01:06:18] What are you talking about?

[01:06:19] Of course it is.

[01:06:20] Yeah, it might be the best at something or for this demographic or for Neil.

[01:06:27] But is it the best DAW hands down, you know, end of conversation?

[01:06:33] Oh, yeah, exactly.

[01:06:34] So if any of those companies said to my face, our DAW is the best DAW, no questions asked, I'd be like, you're lying.

[01:06:43] Watch the studio one that says that.

[01:06:48] And Pro Tools would be like, well, you know.

[01:06:50] You know, so I guess at that point when somebody says, okay, we have a DAW and what direction do we want to go with it, right?

[01:06:58] You know, so I think that Ableton has established itself in its sort of niche corner and they've run with that.

[01:07:05] I don't think they're trying to be Pro Tools or trying to be Logic.

[01:07:08] They have their own thing.

[01:07:09] They have their own thing going on and they know what they're good at and they're doing it.

[01:07:13] And they're not trying to do anything other than that.

[01:07:18] You can do other things with it.

[01:07:20] I know people that mix full songs in Ableton just fine.

[01:07:24] But that's not its main purpose.

[01:07:26] And with Pro Tools, you know, you're not going to be, you know, editing tons of beats and doing a ton of MIDI stuff.

[01:07:34] Your main focus there is mixing, right?

[01:07:37] And editing audio tracks.

[01:07:39] I wish DAWs and maybe one DAW one day will come out with this because there are separate programs for DMX, which is the lighting software.

[01:07:51] Yeah.

[01:07:51] I would love to see a digital audio workstation combined because right now the programs out there for DMX, they're, as the Brits would call, rubbish.

[01:08:04] Especially the cheaper versions of them.

[01:08:06] Like Ntech is okay.

[01:08:08] And there's a couple of others.

[01:08:10] I know my DMX, there's a program there.

[01:08:15] And they all work, but they're buggy.

[01:08:18] And I wish, like, and I hate, I used to have to open up two different programs.

[01:08:23] One for the lights, one for the interface.

[01:08:27] And I wish somebody would just put the two together and even, you know, or something.

[01:08:35] I would not be surprised if that happens.

[01:08:38] I mean, certainly with Personas' show page, they have all kinds of extra tracks for controlling things via MIDI.

[01:08:46] So that's the one that would make sense to me.

[01:08:48] Right.

[01:08:49] That would make a lot of sense.

[01:08:50] Especially with the show page and stuff like that.

[01:08:52] Yeah, exactly.

[01:08:52] They totally could.

[01:08:54] They would just have to work it in somehow.

[01:08:56] And DMX, if you know anything about DMX, it is basically XLR cables, but they have a different voltage.

[01:09:05] So it's a different voltage control, yeah.

[01:09:08] Yeah, they're kind of backwards as to how you plug them in with the male and female ends.

[01:09:12] And all they do is they just transmit DMX signals to the lights from the DMX controller.

[01:09:18] So if there was a DMX controller program built into a digital audio workstation, the connection, especially now, there's so many more artists now that are doing backing tracks out there live.

[01:09:31] It would be such a cool integration to have both of those into one program.

[01:09:38] Just a suggestion to anybody out there that's listening.

[01:09:40] Anyone who's listening.

[01:09:42] So that's my mom.

[01:09:47] One person listening.

[01:09:48] All right.

[01:09:49] Well, that's good.

[01:09:50] Nah.

[01:09:50] All right.

[01:09:51] Well, I guess that's a wrap on this episode.

[01:09:55] Yeah.

[01:09:56] I think we've kind of touched on everything.

[01:09:57] We've covered everything.

[01:09:58] I hope it was helpful for somebody.

[01:10:02] I would hope so.

[01:10:04] And I think we'll have a part two and a part three maybe of this.

[01:10:08] We'll put this idea down on paper and see what we can get from the audio side of the industry and maybe get some players in here to talk about their DAWs.

[01:10:18] Maybe even some of the previous people that we've talked to.

[01:10:20] Maybe, hey, what DAW do you use?

[01:10:22] Yeah.

[01:10:23] We can definitely reach out.

[01:10:24] We can reach out.

[01:10:25] We can definitely reach out and do that.

[01:10:26] Yeah.

[01:10:27] Okay.

[01:10:27] That's a good idea.

[01:10:28] I'll tell you what we could do for part two as well is we could try.

[01:10:31] We could all try a different DAW and actually report back on.

[01:10:38] Okay.