Can I use you as a reference? With Sara Carter

[00:00:01] That was loud. That was loud. Recording in progress. Recording in progress. That was quite loud. It didn't need to be that loud, did it? No. No, absolutely not. So, alright, so I need to... Nate says he'll be here in a sec, so that's fine. We've got 15 minutes, we're good. Do our little normal chit-chat. Get the intro ready.

[00:00:29] Here is Nate. Here is Nate. Any second. Hello. There he is! Hey! How's it going? It's good. We're already recording, so that's done. Nice. Neil, where are you broadcasting from? What depths of space? So this, I believe, is the Millennium Falcon, and I also saw that there was a TV filter, so I just thought that was funny. That works. I miss those TVs, man. That was the TV.

[00:01:02] That was a good day. Oh yeah, with the dials. Oh yeah, with the dials. Yeah, yeah. How you been, Nate? I've been good. Yeah, just kind of getting caught up with things after taking some time away. Takes forever, man. Yeah. Yeah, sure does. We've finally got sun. I mean, Neil, don't chip in with how hot it is with you.

[00:01:26] We're happy with our 23 or 24 degrees and sunshine. We're finally seeing sunshine.

[00:01:31] Dude, we had an unusual heat wave that was stationed over us, a heat dome, as they call it.

[00:01:40] And it was... It wasn't as muggy as I thought it was going to be, which was nice, because then it just is unbearable.

[00:01:48] So it was a little dry, but it was hot.

[00:01:51] I know that... You want humidity and mugginess come where I am.

[00:01:55] It's disgusting. On the hottest day of the whole, like, heat dome,

[00:02:00] I did my once-a-year golf outing with a group of friends, and it was easily 100 degrees.

[00:02:10] Yeah, it's been easily...

[00:02:12] It was just brutal.

[00:02:14] It's ridiculous out there.

[00:02:16] I drank so much water that day.

[00:02:18] Yeah, yeah.

[00:02:19] That's what you've got to do.

[00:02:20] Yeah.

[00:02:21] Always got to have a water bottle with you.

[00:02:23] Always.

[00:02:24] Always.

[00:02:24] I've done the criminal sin this week of...

[00:02:28] That we all say you don't need to do is...

[00:02:30] I'm investigating another DAW for mastering in.

[00:02:34] So, I mean, why would I do that?

[00:02:36] Why would I start with a whole blank canvas of...

[00:02:38] I don't know how any of this works, but...

[00:02:40] Wow.

[00:02:40] I am looking at Wavelabs again, Nate.

[00:02:43] Yeah, you looked at it, and then you said no.

[00:02:46] Yeah, because it's the most complicated thing on the planet.

[00:02:49] What's changing your mind again?

[00:02:51] Because I think it's massively powerful.

[00:02:55] Plus, there's a few bugs in Studio One which annoy me.

[00:03:00] But it is...

[00:03:01] It does look like it's incredibly powerful.

[00:03:04] It's just going to be one of those horrific learning curves

[00:03:06] that's like a sheer space of a cliff

[00:03:09] until I get to grips with it a bit.

[00:03:12] And it's one of those things,

[00:03:13] until you get your template set up, if you know what I mean,

[00:03:15] until you're at the point where you drop a file in,

[00:03:18] put it to the right levels, set all this...

[00:03:20] And your template is effectively ready to go.

[00:03:22] So it's a bit of a...

[00:03:24] Which bit of the screen do I click on first?

[00:03:27] Because there's a million buttons.

[00:03:29] So I thought, yeah, I really should give it a go, though,

[00:03:31] because it does look like it's super powerful.

[00:03:35] All right.

[00:03:35] Yeah.

[00:03:35] Why would I do that?

[00:03:38] I just bought a new lighting piece of hardware called Maestro DMX.

[00:03:46] And it's AI light show.

[00:03:54] Nice.

[00:03:55] So it listens to the audio.

[00:03:56] That's awesome.

[00:03:57] And it, through AI, figures out what should be, in real time,

[00:04:05] what lights, what the color, all the attributes to all the lights.

[00:04:09] So instead of me with a pedal on the ground,

[00:04:12] with a MIDI pedal on the ground,

[00:04:14] like pressing buttons to change the light colors

[00:04:16] at different times in the song,

[00:04:17] which can be a pain in the butt,

[00:04:20] because you're doing a whole bunch of other stuff,

[00:04:23] playing guitar, singing,

[00:04:25] that it can get distracting thinking about the lights, too,

[00:04:29] that maybe this will help with that.

[00:04:31] And I don't have to think so much.

[00:04:35] Nice.

[00:04:35] That sounds cool.

[00:04:36] So it's an expensive piece of gear,

[00:04:39] but let's, I hope it works.

[00:04:41] Just got it yesterday.

[00:04:42] So you also have the learning curve of trying to make it work.

[00:04:46] Yep.

[00:04:47] Yeah.

[00:04:47] We all love those.

[00:04:49] We all love those.

[00:04:51] Yeah.

[00:04:52] I'm doing a learning curve thing.

[00:04:55] I'm implementing some hardware into my universe,

[00:05:04] kind of stepping outside of the box a little bit.

[00:05:07] And it's a learning curve,

[00:05:09] because you think that a plugin that you use

[00:05:12] that has a hardware version works the same.

[00:05:14] It doesn't.

[00:05:15] No.

[00:05:16] It doesn't work the same as the hardware version.

[00:05:18] And so getting used to that

[00:05:19] and implementing a new patch bay

[00:05:22] and just sort of like my studio is kind of on the floor right now,

[00:05:26] partially on the floor

[00:05:27] because I'm getting everything connected

[00:05:29] and sort of getting used to a hybrid,

[00:05:31] a true hybrid setup.

[00:05:32] So once it's all done,

[00:05:35] I'll be,

[00:05:35] I think I'll be really happy with the results.

[00:05:39] Yeah.

[00:05:40] All over the place.

[00:05:41] Stressful and chaotic.

[00:05:42] Yeah.

[00:05:43] I hear you.

[00:05:44] I'm quite pleased that mine is basically,

[00:05:46] my studio is now scaled right back from where it was.

[00:05:49] And it's very, very lean now,

[00:05:51] but that's,

[00:05:51] that's all I need for mastering, right?

[00:05:53] I need good monitoring environment.

[00:05:55] Some good in the box hardware and away we go.

[00:06:00] yeah,

[00:06:01] you know,

[00:06:01] I,

[00:06:02] I wanted the,

[00:06:03] I've always been enamored with the,

[00:06:05] the,

[00:06:06] the hardware workflow.

[00:06:07] Um,

[00:06:10] even from,

[00:06:10] from the early days of,

[00:06:12] of learning this,

[00:06:13] uh,

[00:06:13] learning how to,

[00:06:14] to mix and,

[00:06:15] and using plugins.

[00:06:16] I never liked the really,

[00:06:20] um,

[00:06:21] like non GUI based plugins that didn't relate to a piece of hardware.

[00:06:27] Like there's tons of 1176 emulations out there,

[00:06:30] but I never understood how they worked until I actually used an 1176 emulation

[00:06:35] that looked like an 1176.

[00:06:38] And then like,

[00:06:38] it just,

[00:06:39] it made sense to me.

[00:06:40] Right.

[00:06:41] Same with an LA to a same with lots of other plugins,

[00:06:44] like all these weird emulations or like even the Reaper ones where they're all

[00:06:47] like text based,

[00:06:49] you know,

[00:06:49] like those are great.

[00:06:51] They're super analytical,

[00:06:52] but I just didn't think that way.

[00:06:53] It didn't make sense to me until I started using plugins that looked like

[00:06:57] their real counterparts.

[00:06:58] And I've always just been enamored with how that workflow actually works.

[00:07:02] I think I would have loved working in the day and age of taste,

[00:07:06] um,

[00:07:07] that I think that would have been a lot of fun,

[00:07:10] but yeah,

[00:07:10] you know,

[00:07:11] no,

[00:07:11] not there anymore.

[00:07:12] And it wasn't just,

[00:07:13] and it was cutting and splicing tape.

[00:07:17] And just trust me.

[00:07:18] It's not,

[00:07:18] it,

[00:07:19] I mean,

[00:07:19] it has a nice warm sound to it and you can do,

[00:07:22] you can do crazy things where you push the inputs and,

[00:07:24] you know,

[00:07:24] get funny,

[00:07:25] but yeah,

[00:07:26] the actual process of,

[00:07:27] Oh,

[00:07:27] can we do another take?

[00:07:28] Hold on a minute.

[00:07:31] Hold on.

[00:07:32] We're just backing up.

[00:07:36] Okay.

[00:07:36] Go.

[00:07:37] It's like,

[00:07:37] no,

[00:07:37] it's just not.

[00:07:38] Oh,

[00:07:38] you did that really well,

[00:07:39] man.

[00:07:40] Yeah.

[00:07:40] I stopped it exactly the right place.

[00:07:41] That's why.

[00:07:42] So years of practice.

[00:07:43] It,

[00:07:44] I mean,

[00:07:45] Synthi time codes made it better.

[00:07:47] So you could use your computer to just go,

[00:07:49] you know,

[00:07:49] go back to there.

[00:07:50] But even then you still have to wait for it to spool in the direction.

[00:07:54] And it was much better recording in the box.

[00:07:58] Well,

[00:07:59] you know,

[00:07:59] so that's an interesting,

[00:08:00] that's an interesting thought.

[00:08:02] So a friend of mine that lives five minutes down the road from me,

[00:08:04] he is all about tape.

[00:08:07] He's got like two or three tape machines in a home studio that is no bigger than mine.

[00:08:12] Um,

[00:08:14] he,

[00:08:15] his life is,

[00:08:17] is working on tape.

[00:08:18] And so I wanted to do an episode.

[00:08:20] I think I mentioned this way early on doing a tape episode.

[00:08:22] Yeah.

[00:08:23] And he would be our guest,

[00:08:24] um,

[00:08:25] because he has a ton of experience working on tape,

[00:08:29] the good and the bad and the ugly.

[00:08:30] And,

[00:08:31] you know,

[00:08:32] yeah,

[00:08:32] definitely down for that.

[00:08:33] I think that would be an interesting conversation,

[00:08:35] especially with your background,

[00:08:36] you know,

[00:08:37] with working on tape.

[00:08:38] And,

[00:08:38] and I,

[00:08:39] I love tape,

[00:08:40] but I don't have any experience with it.

[00:08:43] And tape emulation plugins and,

[00:08:46] you know,

[00:08:46] all of this,

[00:08:47] uh,

[00:08:48] yeah,

[00:08:49] I was talking to him one day and he's like,

[00:08:50] I still haven't found a tape emulation plugin that actually sounds like tape.

[00:08:56] They get close,

[00:08:58] but have not yet found one that nails it.

[00:09:01] And,

[00:09:02] and I think with,

[00:09:03] with all plugins,

[00:09:04] that's,

[00:09:05] that's kind of how it works.

[00:09:06] I don't think there's any plugin out there that nails the hardware emulation,

[00:09:10] you know,

[00:09:11] I think,

[00:09:11] um,

[00:09:12] I,

[00:09:12] but I think all of them,

[00:09:13] you know,

[00:09:14] they will sound like a tape machine.

[00:09:16] They might not sound like a tape machine you've heard or that you had.

[00:09:19] It's a bit like a 76.

[00:09:22] There's no,

[00:09:22] there's no two pieces of hardware that will sound alike anyway.

[00:09:25] And that is the joy of the hardware,

[00:09:27] right?

[00:09:27] Yeah.

[00:09:28] That's why you have a console.

[00:09:30] Cause your console sounds like your console.

[00:09:32] Yeah.

[00:09:33] It doesn't sound like an average version of your console.

[00:09:37] It's your console with the crackle on channel four that you can't get rid of.

[00:09:41] And,

[00:09:41] uh,

[00:09:42] you know,

[00:09:42] but that's what makes it.

[00:09:43] Is that kind of like artificial flavoring where like,

[00:09:46] it's not bad.

[00:09:47] It's just,

[00:09:48] it's not exactly the original thing,

[00:09:50] like banana flavor or,

[00:09:52] you know,

[00:09:52] it's a generic banana flavor,

[00:09:54] not that particular banana.

[00:09:56] I don't know,

[00:09:57] man.

[00:09:57] Those banana Laffy Taffys are pretty spot on.

[00:10:00] So like,

[00:10:01] I mean,

[00:10:02] it tastes good,

[00:10:02] but it's not like using actual banana.

[00:10:05] Right.

[00:10:05] But it's still good.

[00:10:08] And so like,

[00:10:08] I'm thinking like,

[00:10:09] so yeah,

[00:10:10] tape is great and it sounds great.

[00:10:12] It's a flavor,

[00:10:13] right?

[00:10:14] Yeah.

[00:10:14] And you're trying to reproduce it artificially and it's not either bad or good.

[00:10:19] It's just different flavors.

[00:10:23] Absolutely.

[00:10:24] I was trying to make an analogy.

[00:10:26] No,

[00:10:26] no,

[00:10:26] that works perfectly.

[00:10:28] Oh,

[00:10:28] it works.

[00:10:30] Well,

[00:10:30] there's our intro,

[00:10:32] but I was actually just thinking that I'm like,

[00:10:34] I think we just did the intro guys.

[00:10:35] That's the intro.

[00:10:36] Banana chat is the intro.

[00:10:37] Banana chat.

[00:10:39] All right.

[00:10:40] Well,

[00:10:40] I guess we'll cut to intro.

[00:10:44] Let's do it.

[00:10:47] Hi,

[00:10:47] and welcome to sound discussion.

[00:10:50] Each episode,

[00:10:51] we discuss a music topic,

[00:10:52] which we have all had firsthand experience with.

[00:10:55] This will be anything from getting started,

[00:10:58] recording,

[00:10:59] playing live,

[00:11:00] mixing,

[00:11:01] mastering,

[00:11:02] and everything in between.

[00:11:03] Most episodes,

[00:11:04] we will have a special guest to bring their professional experience to the discussion.

[00:11:09] So,

[00:11:10] let's get started.

[00:11:14] Today's guest is a dynamic force in the music industry,

[00:11:17] known for her expertise in audio engineering and production.

[00:11:19] She has worked with some of the biggest artists on the planet,

[00:11:22] including Katie Tunstall,

[00:11:24] Colleen Bailey-Rae,

[00:11:25] Little Man Tate,

[00:11:26] Girls Aloud,

[00:11:26] and many,

[00:11:27] many others.

[00:11:27] During her time at the BBC Maida Vale studio,

[00:11:31] she worked on sessions for Radio 1,

[00:11:33] Radio 2,

[00:11:33] One Extra,

[00:11:34] and Six Music.

[00:11:35] At Music Mix Pro,

[00:11:37] our guest very much believes that all independent bands and artists should have the same broadcast quality releases of major label artists.

[00:11:44] Combining cutting-edge technology with her creative flair to produce top-notch mixes,

[00:11:49] she enables artists to bring their musical visions to life.

[00:11:52] Whether you're an aspiring musician or a seasoned pro,

[00:11:55] her insights and experience in the world of music production are sure to inspire and inform.

[00:11:59] We're excited to have her with us today.

[00:12:02] Please welcome to the show,

[00:12:04] Sarah Carter.

[00:12:05] Hello.

[00:12:06] Hello.

[00:12:07] Wow.

[00:12:07] What an amazing introduction.

[00:12:10] There you go.

[00:12:11] What am I?

[00:12:12] A power,

[00:12:12] what am I?

[00:12:12] A powerhouse or something?

[00:12:14] You are a dynamic force in the music industry.

[00:12:16] That is amazing.

[00:12:18] I'm going to put that on my business cards.

[00:12:19] I'll send it.

[00:12:22] That's,

[00:12:23] that's the,

[00:12:23] that's what you get if you Google you on the internet.

[00:12:26] Right.

[00:12:26] That's,

[00:12:27] that's,

[00:12:28] I'm,

[00:12:28] as soon as we get off this call,

[00:12:29] I'm going to do that and,

[00:12:32] and,

[00:12:32] and laugh a lot.

[00:12:34] I imagine.

[00:12:35] It's really hard to,

[00:12:36] to build your own sort of bio.

[00:12:38] You just have to rely on the internet anymore.

[00:12:40] Right.

[00:12:40] Cause I know,

[00:12:41] I know it's,

[00:12:43] it's scary.

[00:12:43] You can't talk yourself up as well as,

[00:12:45] as Google can.

[00:12:46] No,

[00:12:47] I know that.

[00:12:47] Well,

[00:12:47] that's right.

[00:12:48] Because you have this,

[00:12:49] well,

[00:12:49] I do.

[00:12:50] I have this bias where I'm,

[00:12:52] I,

[00:12:52] you know,

[00:12:52] it's that imposter syndrome that's still deep inside,

[00:12:55] you know?

[00:12:57] Yeah.

[00:12:57] We did a whole episode on that.

[00:12:59] Yeah.

[00:12:59] Yeah.

[00:12:59] Oh,

[00:12:59] really?

[00:13:01] Episode two.

[00:13:02] Go back and listen to that.

[00:13:03] If you have.

[00:13:03] I will.

[00:13:04] But that is,

[00:13:05] yeah,

[00:13:05] it is very real.

[00:13:07] And I don't think it ever goes away.

[00:13:09] Absolutely.

[00:13:10] Absolutely.

[00:13:11] We legitimately decided on that episode that it never goes away.

[00:13:15] No,

[00:13:15] Oh,

[00:13:15] that's right.

[00:13:16] I think you can learn to deal with it and manage it.

[00:13:20] But I think that once it's there,

[00:13:23] unless you can,

[00:13:24] unless you can conquer your fear by doing it repetitively over and over and over and over and over again,

[00:13:31] then,

[00:13:32] yeah,

[00:13:33] you've pretty much stuck with it.

[00:13:35] But yeah,

[00:13:36] that's the reason I left the BBC was imposter syndrome.

[00:13:40] So,

[00:13:41] Oh,

[00:13:41] really?

[00:13:42] Yeah.

[00:13:42] Yeah.

[00:13:43] I didn't know it then.

[00:13:44] Do you think that if you had stayed,

[00:13:46] bought through that or whatever would,

[00:13:48] would things,

[00:13:49] how different would your path be?

[00:13:51] Oh,

[00:13:52] gosh.

[00:13:52] I mean,

[00:13:52] it's hard to tell the future and all that stuff,

[00:13:54] but yeah,

[00:13:55] no,

[00:13:55] it would be really different.

[00:13:57] But as you know,

[00:13:58] when I think about it now,

[00:13:59] I mean,

[00:13:59] we've just got Glastonbury is kicking off and that was the biggest festival for,

[00:14:06] for us,

[00:14:07] for our team in at the BBC.

[00:14:11] And we used to do the,

[00:14:12] the sound in the trucks at the back of the stages,

[00:14:15] various stages for the TV before the TV shows.

[00:14:21] But yeah,

[00:14:22] had I stayed,

[00:14:23] I would have progressed to have been running one of those trucks.

[00:14:30] And that still scares me to death.

[00:14:32] And I just,

[00:14:34] you know,

[00:14:35] I think it's just that fear of failing.

[00:14:38] It's still there.

[00:14:39] So yeah,

[00:14:41] my,

[00:14:42] the path would have been very,

[00:14:44] very different,

[00:14:45] but I love where I'm at right now.

[00:14:47] Suits me better.

[00:14:48] And I'm happier for it.

[00:14:51] And,

[00:14:52] you know,

[00:14:53] the BBC was fantastic.

[00:14:54] Great training ground.

[00:14:56] I worked with some amazing people,

[00:14:58] all those,

[00:14:58] you know,

[00:14:59] the big name people that you,

[00:15:00] you mentioned in the intro,

[00:15:02] courtesy of the BBC and,

[00:15:04] and assisting in sessions there running one or two.

[00:15:08] And,

[00:15:10] yeah,

[00:15:11] I loved it.

[00:15:12] Loved every minute of it.

[00:15:13] Really.

[00:15:14] Apart from,

[00:15:15] you know,

[00:15:16] it wasn't all,

[00:15:17] you know,

[00:15:18] sunshine and unicorns.

[00:15:20] You know,

[00:15:21] I loved working at the,

[00:15:22] it made available studios and doing sessions,

[00:15:24] but I didn't love doing the sort of daytime shows that much.

[00:15:30] But it's all part of the job and it's great training.

[00:15:33] It's,

[00:15:33] it's,

[00:15:34] you know,

[00:15:34] it really builds up those critical listening skills and working methodically,

[00:15:40] you know,

[00:15:41] all that kind of thing,

[00:15:44] which I'm really grateful for.

[00:15:47] We,

[00:15:47] I always sort of grew up being told that if you did sound for the BBC,

[00:15:51] it's,

[00:15:52] you know,

[00:15:52] that's like the pinnacle of where you learn your trade.

[00:15:55] Do you still think that's true?

[00:15:56] Do you?

[00:15:59] I,

[00:16:00] I,

[00:16:00] absolutely.

[00:16:01] I do.

[00:16:01] Yes.

[00:16:02] I'm,

[00:16:02] I pause because I was running through my mind,

[00:16:05] you know,

[00:16:05] the various institutions,

[00:16:07] educational institutions that are out there,

[00:16:10] but really,

[00:16:11] that,

[00:16:11] that sort of,

[00:16:14] the BBC was all hands on and it was live performances.

[00:16:20] Um,

[00:16:21] and if you made a mistake,

[00:16:23] millions would hear it.

[00:16:25] Um,

[00:16:26] hence the imposter syndrome,

[00:16:27] I think,

[00:16:28] you know,

[00:16:29] just living in anxiety or fear of that.

[00:16:32] Um,

[00:16:34] but yeah,

[00:16:35] it's,

[00:16:36] it's,

[00:16:37] uh,

[00:16:38] it was like an old fashioned apprenticeship.

[00:16:41] Really.

[00:16:42] And,

[00:16:42] and I,

[00:16:43] and I think that being,

[00:16:45] um,

[00:16:46] enveloped by that sort of talent day in,

[00:16:48] day out.

[00:16:49] I don't,

[00:16:50] you don't get that.

[00:16:52] Well,

[00:16:52] I don't think you get that in a university or,

[00:16:54] or,

[00:16:55] or any sort of further education,

[00:16:56] that actual hands on one-to-one working with big named artists.

[00:17:04] Um,

[00:17:05] um,

[00:17:06] and that sort of sense,

[00:17:07] that studio sense of,

[00:17:10] uh,

[00:17:11] I don't know,

[00:17:12] you know,

[00:17:12] being a good studio assistant and what that means.

[00:17:16] And,

[00:17:17] uh,

[00:17:17] uh,

[00:17:18] that is really,

[00:17:19] that was a really great training ground for me to be able to,

[00:17:24] to get on with a lot of people and to progress through the BBC as well.

[00:17:29] Yeah.

[00:17:30] It was certainly,

[00:17:31] uh,

[00:17:32] a common thing I've heard from people that,

[00:17:36] you know,

[00:17:36] going and getting an audio education from a university or,

[00:17:40] um,

[00:17:41] one of those sort of like trade ish sort of programs is all well and good,

[00:17:47] but nothing will ever beat just being thrown into the fire and,

[00:17:52] you know,

[00:17:53] having to figure it out and learning that way.

[00:17:56] And,

[00:17:57] you know,

[00:17:57] I,

[00:17:58] you could probably say that with lots of,

[00:17:59] uh,

[00:18:00] various university based educations,

[00:18:02] you know,

[00:18:03] textbook will never replace real life.

[00:18:06] Yes.

[00:18:07] Um,

[00:18:08] I mean,

[00:18:09] I did,

[00:18:09] I did that sort of further education training before I got into the BBC as

[00:18:14] well.

[00:18:14] So the two of them together really have been,

[00:18:18] um,

[00:18:20] I,

[00:18:20] I was,

[00:18:20] I wouldn't do anything differently if I could turn back the clock,

[00:18:23] I would do exactly that.

[00:18:25] the same thing.

[00:18:27] Um,

[00:18:28] and I was just grateful at the time in my life that I was at to be even offered a

[00:18:35] job,

[00:18:36] anything,

[00:18:36] you know,

[00:18:37] anything like what the BBC was offering,

[00:18:39] uh,

[00:18:40] because I was just,

[00:18:42] I was too old really to get into studios at that sort of studio assistant

[00:18:46] level.

[00:18:48] Um,

[00:18:49] and they,

[00:18:50] you know,

[00:18:50] you were lucky if you even got paid in that sort of job.

[00:18:54] So being in my sort of mid thirties at that time,

[00:18:58] I had commitments.

[00:19:00] Yeah.

[00:19:00] And you needed a paycheck.

[00:19:02] Yeah.

[00:19:02] I needed bills,

[00:19:03] I had bills to pay.

[00:19:04] So,

[00:19:05] um,

[00:19:06] that the BBC was an absolute blessing.

[00:19:09] And it was one of the,

[00:19:10] it's one of the high points of my life so far was being offered that job.

[00:19:15] I couldn't,

[00:19:16] I know where I was.

[00:19:18] Um,

[00:19:19] I can see it in my mind now.

[00:19:21] It was,

[00:19:21] it was absolutely amazing,

[00:19:24] which made leaving such a difficult decision.

[00:19:28] And,

[00:19:28] uh,

[00:19:29] yeah,

[00:19:29] we've already covered that.

[00:19:30] So,

[00:19:32] but it's been wonderful to get back into it.

[00:19:35] I needed a break from it because of that,

[00:19:38] but a break from audio,

[00:19:40] which I did for a few years.

[00:19:41] And then,

[00:19:43] but that was great because that made me realize that this is what I really want

[00:19:48] to do.

[00:19:49] Uh,

[00:19:50] uh,

[00:19:50] it's what I was meant to do,

[00:19:51] I think without getting too kind of woo woo about anything.

[00:19:55] But,

[00:19:55] um,

[00:19:57] I'm,

[00:19:57] I dabbled,

[00:19:59] I stepped foot back into it and,

[00:20:02] uh,

[00:20:02] and it's been great ever since,

[00:20:04] uh,

[00:20:04] just,

[00:20:05] you know,

[00:20:06] loving,

[00:20:06] loving every minute of it,

[00:20:07] loving the new opportunities and loving teaching people,

[00:20:10] which that surprised me,

[00:20:12] but,

[00:20:13] you know,

[00:20:13] you live and learn.

[00:20:15] Yeah.

[00:20:16] Um,

[00:20:17] I,

[00:20:17] I've,

[00:20:18] I've had a similar experience.

[00:20:20] Um,

[00:20:20] I'm,

[00:20:21] I'm a violinist and I learned violin growing up and,

[00:20:25] uh,

[00:20:26] you know,

[00:20:27] partially enjoyed it.

[00:20:28] I guess it was something my parents really wanted me to do.

[00:20:31] And yeah,

[00:20:31] you're,

[00:20:32] you know,

[00:20:32] 11 years old.

[00:20:33] What choice do you have?

[00:20:34] You're,

[00:20:34] you're going to,

[00:20:35] you know,

[00:20:35] play the violin.

[00:20:36] Yeah.

[00:20:36] I want you to do it.

[00:20:37] So once I got into college and,

[00:20:41] you know,

[00:20:42] decided to try and make that my,

[00:20:45] you know,

[00:20:46] my major performance major,

[00:20:48] I realized that that wasn't for me.

[00:20:49] Right.

[00:20:50] Wow.

[00:20:51] Yeah.

[00:20:51] That,

[00:20:51] that was a different world than,

[00:20:54] than I had sort of grown up in playing the violin.

[00:20:57] A performance major was very much after one semester,

[00:21:00] I realized,

[00:21:01] yeah,

[00:21:02] this is not what I want to do.

[00:21:04] I'm going to put my violin away.

[00:21:04] And I did for probably 10 years.

[00:21:07] And,

[00:21:07] uh,

[00:21:08] I brought it back out,

[00:21:09] uh,

[00:21:10] and started playing it again.

[00:21:12] Um,

[00:21:13] probably a few years before I had a child and it was kind of weird how much I

[00:21:21] remembered and felt very comfortable and natural to just play the violin.

[00:21:26] And I enjoyed it again,

[00:21:27] uh,

[00:21:28] much more than I ever did,

[00:21:30] you know,

[00:21:31] in my teens and,

[00:21:32] and picking it up as an adult and,

[00:21:34] and relearning some things.

[00:21:36] And,

[00:21:36] and yeah,

[00:21:37] I found it very enjoyable and,

[00:21:39] and very much that sort of like,

[00:21:41] this is kind of my instrument.

[00:21:42] This is what I,

[00:21:43] you know,

[00:21:44] was meant to play.

[00:21:45] Uh,

[00:21:46] and certainly I'm,

[00:21:47] I'm not,

[00:21:48] uh,

[00:21:48] Joshua Bell or anything like that,

[00:21:50] but,

[00:21:50] um,

[00:21:51] it's an enjoyable thing.

[00:21:53] And I found it kind of like,

[00:21:55] you know,

[00:21:56] riding a bike.

[00:21:57] You just sort of remember how to do it and,

[00:21:59] and,

[00:22:00] you know,

[00:22:00] you have fun with it.

[00:22:02] Yeah.

[00:22:02] Yeah.

[00:22:03] That's amazing.

[00:22:04] So what did you do?

[00:22:05] What did you do when you weren't doing music?

[00:22:07] You said you had a few years away.

[00:22:08] What did you do?

[00:22:09] Yeah.

[00:22:10] Was it anything exciting?

[00:22:12] Do was it,

[00:22:12] did you travel the world and?

[00:22:13] No,

[00:22:14] no,

[00:22:14] I was a,

[00:22:15] I was a head brewer in a microbrewery.

[00:22:19] Well,

[00:22:19] that sounds like an awesome job.

[00:22:21] We should talk about that.

[00:22:22] That sounds amazing.

[00:22:23] Let's,

[00:22:23] let's talk about beer.

[00:22:25] Yeah.

[00:22:26] Yeah.

[00:22:26] That it was,

[00:22:27] uh,

[00:22:28] I've,

[00:22:29] um,

[00:22:29] I've always enjoyed ale,

[00:22:31] real ale,

[00:22:32] uh,

[00:22:32] beer.

[00:22:34] And,

[00:22:35] uh,

[00:22:35] I grew up in a pub.

[00:22:37] So it was kind of in the blood,

[00:22:39] I suppose.

[00:22:40] Yeah.

[00:22:41] But as I went,

[00:22:42] whilst I was at the BBC,

[00:22:44] I started brewing,

[00:22:45] home brewing.

[00:22:47] And it was my outlet,

[00:22:49] really.

[00:22:49] It was,

[00:22:51] uh,

[00:22:51] how I relaxed.

[00:22:52] And I entered a few competitions.

[00:22:55] I won,

[00:22:56] uh,

[00:22:57] a few competitions as well.

[00:22:59] And it all kind of coincided at the same point when I wasn't particularly happy with the BBC and,

[00:23:07] uh,

[00:23:08] getting more and more anxious.

[00:23:09] And I just,

[00:23:10] uh,

[00:23:10] wanted to find some space so that I could,

[00:23:14] uh,

[00:23:15] take stock of where I was and what I wanted to do with my future.

[00:23:18] And so,

[00:23:19] uh,

[00:23:20] I,

[00:23:20] I wrote to a local brewery,

[00:23:22] um,

[00:23:23] and asked if they had any job vacancies and they did.

[00:23:27] Uh,

[00:23:27] and that,

[00:23:29] so that was it really.

[00:23:30] That was a catalyst for leaving the BBC.

[00:23:32] I had somewhere to go to.

[00:23:34] And,

[00:23:35] uh,

[00:23:36] and I,

[00:23:36] and I loved it for the first few years.

[00:23:38] It was really relaxing,

[00:23:40] fun,

[00:23:41] um,

[00:23:42] still creative,

[00:23:42] you know,

[00:23:43] coming up with recipes and,

[00:23:45] um,

[00:23:46] and what have you,

[00:23:47] uh,

[00:23:48] and actually making something that people enjoyed.

[00:23:51] And,

[00:23:52] uh,

[00:23:52] but then,

[00:23:53] you know,

[00:23:54] the,

[00:23:54] the second sort of half of that stint again,

[00:23:57] started to get,

[00:23:58] get bored really.

[00:23:59] And.

[00:24:01] Started to question my,

[00:24:04] what went wrong with music for me and why I didn't listen to music that much

[00:24:09] anymore.

[00:24:10] And would,

[00:24:11] it was at that point that I kind of came to the term,

[00:24:14] came to terms with or learned about imposter syndrome.

[00:24:18] And,

[00:24:19] and I thought,

[00:24:20] oh,

[00:24:20] well,

[00:24:20] that's,

[00:24:21] yeah,

[00:24:21] I identified with it completely.

[00:24:24] So it was so refreshing to actually get to know what was happening.

[00:24:28] What was,

[00:24:29] why I'd,

[00:24:30] I'd felt how I'd felt and that there was nothing wrong with me or,

[00:24:33] you know,

[00:24:34] I wasn't,

[00:24:34] I hadn't thrown away or squandered the,

[00:24:38] I hadn't thrown away or squandered the,

[00:24:38] the best chance ever of,

[00:24:40] of,

[00:24:41] of working in the career that I wanted to.

[00:24:45] And,

[00:24:46] um,

[00:24:46] I got some help with that.

[00:24:48] Um,

[00:24:49] uh,

[00:24:50] hypnotherapy,

[00:24:51] believe it or not.

[00:24:52] Um,

[00:24:53] and I was able to deal with that issue.

[00:24:57] And,

[00:24:58] uh,

[00:24:58] it was the strangest thing.

[00:25:01] Uh,

[00:25:01] it was about a month after I'd finished the,

[00:25:05] the,

[00:25:05] the therapy.

[00:25:07] Um,

[00:25:08] and out of nowhere,

[00:25:11] uh,

[00:25:12] it pop,

[00:25:12] a thought popped into my head,

[00:25:14] listening to music.

[00:25:16] Like,

[00:25:17] I'd loved that kick drum sounds great.

[00:25:19] I wonder how they did that.

[00:25:21] And I thought,

[00:25:22] where on earth did that come from?

[00:25:24] Cause I'd not,

[00:25:25] I'd not had that thought in years.

[00:25:28] Cause I was,

[00:25:28] I'd retreated from that.

[00:25:29] You see,

[00:25:29] I would,

[00:25:30] you know,

[00:25:30] went to my safe place and,

[00:25:32] uh,

[00:25:33] I just didn't,

[00:25:33] didn't entertain that kind of deep thinking or critical thinking about music anymore.

[00:25:40] And there it was.

[00:25:41] And,

[00:25:41] and,

[00:25:42] and,

[00:25:42] and I really felt the desire to want to do that.

[00:25:46] to do it again.

[00:25:47] It's the weirdest thing.

[00:25:49] And so I did,

[00:25:51] which is how I,

[00:25:53] uh,

[00:25:53] it was kind of like,

[00:25:54] uh,

[00:25:55] that's how I learned about Joe Gilda really was because,

[00:25:58] uh,

[00:25:59] I think the first DAW that I had at that point was studio one.

[00:26:04] And he did all the personas training videos.

[00:26:07] Yeah.

[00:26:08] And so that's how I kind of picked,

[00:26:10] I learned about him.

[00:26:11] Um,

[00:26:12] I liked his style.

[00:26:14] What year was this?

[00:26:16] Oh,

[00:26:19] did you do 2000 and,

[00:26:24] um,

[00:26:25] oh,

[00:26:25] 2014,

[00:26:26] maybe something like that.

[00:26:28] 2013.

[00:26:29] Yeah.

[00:26:30] Yeah.

[00:26:32] Um,

[00:26:33] so,

[00:26:34] uh,

[00:26:35] so yeah,

[00:26:35] uh,

[00:26:36] brewing.

[00:26:36] That was my thing.

[00:26:37] Wow.

[00:26:38] Hence,

[00:26:38] needless,

[00:26:39] I don't brew now.

[00:26:40] I don't brew these days.

[00:26:41] Um,

[00:26:42] in fact,

[00:26:43] uh,

[00:26:43] yeah,

[00:26:44] I,

[00:26:44] I don't,

[00:26:45] um,

[00:26:45] I don't drink that much at all these days.

[00:26:47] So,

[00:26:48] uh,

[00:26:48] so yeah.

[00:26:50] Uh,

[00:26:51] very interesting.

[00:26:52] Very interesting.

[00:26:54] Breweries are a great place for,

[00:26:55] uh,

[00:26:56] live music.

[00:26:56] I don't know.

[00:26:57] Yes.

[00:26:58] If they are in England.

[00:27:00] Craft,

[00:27:00] craft breweries.

[00:27:01] Yeah.

[00:27:02] The boom,

[00:27:03] um,

[00:27:04] uh,

[00:27:05] you know,

[00:27:05] happened in,

[00:27:06] in Britain,

[00:27:07] you know,

[00:27:07] off the back of what was going on in the U S.

[00:27:10] Um,

[00:27:11] and,

[00:27:11] and then it kind of spread all,

[00:27:12] all over the world really.

[00:27:14] But,

[00:27:14] but yeah,

[00:27:15] that's my favorite type of,

[00:27:17] of beer really.

[00:27:19] Um,

[00:27:20] that,

[00:27:20] that sort of craft produced ale.

[00:27:22] That's got lots of flavor.

[00:27:24] Small batch.

[00:27:26] Yes.

[00:27:27] Yes.

[00:27:28] Uh,

[00:27:29] but yeah.

[00:27:30] Um,

[00:27:31] I don't brew anymore.

[00:27:34] Wow.

[00:27:34] So master brewer.

[00:27:36] I mean,

[00:27:36] there you go.

[00:27:37] Yeah.

[00:27:38] Yeah.

[00:27:38] Head brewer.

[00:27:39] Master brewer is,

[00:27:39] is another,

[00:27:40] is another level.

[00:27:42] Head brewer.

[00:27:42] But a head brewer,

[00:27:43] but none of us can claim to be that.

[00:27:45] No,

[00:27:46] we just,

[00:27:47] we just drink beer.

[00:27:48] Yeah.

[00:27:50] I've thought about,

[00:27:51] you know,

[00:27:52] maybe getting some home brew supply.

[00:27:53] But I need another hobby,

[00:27:55] like a hole in my head.

[00:27:56] So.

[00:27:57] Yeah.

[00:27:58] Yeah.

[00:27:59] Yeah.

[00:27:59] I like that.

[00:27:59] I get to try all the beer every,

[00:28:02] I'm playing at a brewery next weekend.

[00:28:04] And,

[00:28:05] and,

[00:28:05] um,

[00:28:05] they're like,

[00:28:06] they always like,

[00:28:06] Hey,

[00:28:07] here's try this one or here,

[00:28:08] try that one.

[00:28:09] So it's cool.

[00:28:10] Nice.

[00:28:10] Live music is the only job I've ever had where it's encouraged to drink.

[00:28:14] Yes.

[00:28:15] Yes.

[00:28:17] Absolutely.

[00:28:18] So when we,

[00:28:19] um,

[00:28:19] when we chatted over email,

[00:28:21] which was great,

[00:28:22] we sort of touched on a topic,

[00:28:23] to talk about,

[00:28:24] which I think you sort of said you'd be most interested in.

[00:28:27] And I think we don't try and stick to it too.

[00:28:30] If you listen to any of the other episodes,

[00:28:32] you'll find they wander all over the place.

[00:28:34] Okay.

[00:28:34] But,

[00:28:34] um,

[00:28:35] so we sort of touched on the use of reference tracks in studios and,

[00:28:39] or how you use reference tracks.

[00:28:40] And that's the thing.

[00:28:41] And one of the things that comes up quite a lot when we talk to other people

[00:28:44] is,

[00:28:45] should I be using reference tracks?

[00:28:46] Should I not be using reference tracks?

[00:28:47] How do we use reference tracks?

[00:28:50] What,

[00:28:50] let's just kick this and try and get back on track for two minutes.

[00:28:54] What's your views on reference tracks?

[00:28:56] Are they something you use a lot or are they sparingly at certain points?

[00:29:01] Yeah,

[00:29:02] I,

[00:29:03] um,

[00:29:03] I'm a big proponent for the use of reference tracks only because it works

[00:29:08] for me.

[00:29:10] And,

[00:29:10] um,

[00:29:11] I,

[00:29:12] uh,

[00:29:14] I just find that they are,

[00:29:16] they provide me with boundaries or they provide me with a goal for,

[00:29:21] for the mix.

[00:29:21] And I think you need to have that.

[00:29:24] You need to know where you're going when you start a mix really,

[00:29:27] or have an idea.

[00:29:28] Um,

[00:29:29] and reference tracks do that for me.

[00:29:31] What reference tracks also do for me is they help me make decisions faster.

[00:29:38] Um,

[00:29:40] so,

[00:29:41] uh,

[00:29:41] I'll use reference tracks,

[00:29:43] tracks,

[00:29:44] uh,

[00:29:44] not all the time,

[00:29:46] not,

[00:29:46] I'm not constantly going backwards and forwards,

[00:29:48] but whenever something,

[00:29:49] when I'm unsure about something,

[00:29:52] then I'll go to a reference track to kind of just sanity check my idea.

[00:29:57] Really.

[00:29:58] And so,

[00:30:00] um,

[00:30:01] yeah,

[00:30:01] I highly recommend the use of reference tracks.

[00:30:04] And,

[00:30:05] and I know some people don't like you to use them because they talk about how it will stifle their creativity and all that kind of thing.

[00:30:13] And if that's the case,

[00:30:15] I understand that.

[00:30:17] But,

[00:30:19] so long as you have got some other method of checking your mix,

[00:30:26] so that when it's out there in the real world,

[00:30:28] it isn't,

[00:30:29] you know,

[00:30:31] complete,

[00:30:31] you know,

[00:30:32] really saturated in the high end,

[00:30:34] lots of,

[00:30:35] um,

[00:30:36] you know,

[00:30:37] fizzy sounding elements,

[00:30:38] or the low end isn't super muddy,

[00:30:40] uh,

[00:30:41] and that you,

[00:30:43] you know,

[00:30:44] you've really made use of the entire soundstage,

[00:30:48] then,

[00:30:48] then fine.

[00:30:50] But I,

[00:30:50] I find references actually spark ideas for me,

[00:30:55] not,

[00:30:55] not,

[00:30:56] you know,

[00:30:57] confine,

[00:30:58] not,

[00:30:58] not keep me in a box or,

[00:31:00] or,

[00:31:01] or,

[00:31:01] you know,

[00:31:02] it's like presets on plugins,

[00:31:05] effects plugins,

[00:31:06] particularly.

[00:31:07] I don't claim to be particularly brilliant at using effects,

[00:31:10] but,

[00:31:11] um,

[00:31:12] when I'm,

[00:31:13] when I'm stuck,

[00:31:14] I know what sounds wrong and I know what sounds right.

[00:31:18] And,

[00:31:18] and I find that if I,

[00:31:21] if I'm kind of stuck,

[00:31:22] then presets are a great way to get out of that.

[00:31:26] Um,

[00:31:27] people love to hate on,

[00:31:28] on preset surfing.

[00:31:30] Yes.

[00:31:30] And I never understood why,

[00:31:31] because it,

[00:31:32] it gives you a great way to,

[00:31:35] to go quickly through some settings and find something that is in your

[00:31:38] ballpark.

[00:31:39] And then you tweak it from there.

[00:31:40] Like what's the,

[00:31:40] what's the problem with?

[00:31:41] Yeah.

[00:31:42] Yeah.

[00:31:42] I do it on my life console all the time.

[00:31:44] It's like,

[00:31:44] okay,

[00:31:45] I got somebody else I'm plugging in and they're,

[00:31:47] they've got a guitar and you've got to think fast.

[00:31:50] Cause you,

[00:31:50] you don't have time to sit there and play their music over and over

[00:31:54] again and tweak stuff.

[00:31:56] You're like,

[00:31:56] well,

[00:31:57] preset,

[00:31:57] what are the presets?

[00:31:58] Male vocal or male guitar,

[00:32:01] acoustic guitar.

[00:32:02] Just click that.

[00:32:03] Start with that.

[00:32:03] In the ballpark.

[00:32:04] And they're out there.

[00:32:05] Yeah.

[00:32:06] And if it,

[00:32:07] and so long as you can discern,

[00:32:09] yeah,

[00:32:10] that's working or no,

[00:32:11] that that's not working.

[00:32:12] Then,

[00:32:12] then that's,

[00:32:13] that is great to go down that path.

[00:32:15] I don't particularly buy into presets on any kind of dynamics

[00:32:18] plugins,

[00:32:19] particularly,

[00:32:20] cause that matters,

[00:32:21] you know,

[00:32:22] the level,

[00:32:22] the input level matters so much.

[00:32:25] Um,

[00:32:26] and that,

[00:32:26] that can change from session to session,

[00:32:29] from track to track.

[00:32:30] So,

[00:32:31] but having said that,

[00:32:33] like you've just said,

[00:32:34] Neil,

[00:32:35] you know,

[00:32:36] male vocal,

[00:32:37] it,

[00:32:37] it will perhaps give you the attack and release settings,

[00:32:40] uh,

[00:32:41] that,

[00:32:41] that are,

[00:32:42] are a good starting point.

[00:32:44] Oh yeah.

[00:32:44] And you do have to adjust the input gain,

[00:32:46] but at least that's like,

[00:32:47] you're focusing on that as opposed to,

[00:32:50] well,

[00:32:50] what should the attack and release be?

[00:32:51] And,

[00:32:51] and then you go to that part.

[00:32:53] Like once you get the input,

[00:32:54] then like it's,

[00:32:55] it's a faster workflow.

[00:32:57] Yes.

[00:32:58] Cause you've got something to start with rather than everything at zero.

[00:33:01] And you're like,

[00:33:01] okay,

[00:33:02] now I've got 15 knobs that I've got to like turn up.

[00:33:05] Yes.

[00:33:05] And the guitarist is over there already plugged in,

[00:33:07] ready to go.

[00:33:08] And the audience is out there and it's like,

[00:33:09] okay,

[00:33:10] yeah.

[00:33:10] What do I do?

[00:33:11] Yeah.

[00:33:12] And speed is so important in mixing as well,

[00:33:15] in order to get into that flow or to keep that energy going.

[00:33:20] And,

[00:33:20] uh,

[00:33:21] reference tracks kind of helped me do that as well because of that decision

[00:33:25] making element.

[00:33:27] If,

[00:33:28] you know,

[00:33:29] let's say,

[00:33:31] uh,

[00:33:31] let's say it's something like a snare,

[00:33:33] snare level.

[00:33:34] Is my snare balanced?

[00:33:35] Um,

[00:33:36] I might go to a reference track just to check the relationship between the

[00:33:39] snare and the vocal in a particular style of music.

[00:33:43] And,

[00:33:44] um,

[00:33:45] uh,

[00:33:46] within seconds.

[00:33:47] I,

[00:33:47] I know that,

[00:33:48] and I know that had,

[00:33:50] if I hadn't done that and that wasn't the case,

[00:33:53] then everything I do after that is built on that relationship.

[00:33:57] And it could take the mix in the whole,

[00:33:59] whole bad direction.

[00:34:01] Uh,

[00:34:02] that is almost impossible to unpick at the end.

[00:34:05] So,

[00:34:05] um,

[00:34:07] yeah,

[00:34:07] that,

[00:34:07] that,

[00:34:09] that element or that aspect of mixing and trying to keep that flow going.

[00:34:15] So that you can make,

[00:34:18] uh,

[00:34:20] decisions in that heightened,

[00:34:23] um,

[00:34:26] creative headspace is really important for me.

[00:34:29] That's it.

[00:34:29] That's interesting that you had mentioned that it,

[00:34:31] it like reference tracks can inspire your mix.

[00:34:35] Hmm.

[00:34:36] Yeah.

[00:34:36] Yeah.

[00:34:37] I never thought of it like that.

[00:34:38] I'd always like,

[00:34:39] I was like,

[00:34:40] Oh,

[00:34:40] okay.

[00:34:40] Is,

[00:34:41] is my mix money?

[00:34:41] Is it,

[00:34:42] you know,

[00:34:42] I would,

[00:34:42] I wouldn't use reference checks that often when I did mix,

[00:34:45] it was more of an after,

[00:34:47] after I'm done with my mix.

[00:34:49] I want to see,

[00:34:49] you know,

[00:34:50] but you,

[00:34:51] you're talking like use it in the beginning and then that can inspire.

[00:34:56] Yeah.

[00:34:57] That's,

[00:34:57] that's interesting.

[00:34:58] Yeah.

[00:34:58] I didn't,

[00:34:59] I think that,

[00:35:00] uh,

[00:35:00] I'm,

[00:35:01] I've sort of recognized the fact that I'm not a music producer.

[00:35:05] I never have been.

[00:35:07] I've not been that.

[00:35:08] My brain just doesn't work that way.

[00:35:10] I think maybe probably because I've not,

[00:35:12] I've never been a brilliant musician,

[00:35:16] you know,

[00:35:16] literally just playing chords on the guitar or playing some simple

[00:35:20] bass lines.

[00:35:21] That's about the extent really.

[00:35:23] I,

[00:35:23] I learned early on that it was more the technical side and capturing

[00:35:29] the recordings that I really enjoyed.

[00:35:31] And so kind of stepped away from the musicianship side,

[00:35:33] side of things.

[00:35:35] And so that side,

[00:35:38] that sort of way of thinking like a music producer and thinking about

[00:35:41] arrangement and thinking about building up and melodies and textures.

[00:35:46] And that's not really my,

[00:35:49] my first skill.

[00:35:51] So,

[00:35:52] um,

[00:35:54] that's where listening to reference tracks,

[00:35:57] particularly high quality,

[00:35:59] well-written,

[00:36:00] well-arranged,

[00:36:01] uh,

[00:36:02] songs that I really love is able to help me be more creative in that,

[00:36:09] in that mixing process.

[00:36:11] I was going to say,

[00:36:12] I think you've raised a really interesting point about reference tracks

[00:36:15] because,

[00:36:15] uh,

[00:36:15] you,

[00:36:16] it was mentioned earlier,

[00:36:17] people who don't use reference tracks and I don't use reference

[00:36:20] tracks.

[00:36:20] I dislike reference tracks and I'll,

[00:36:23] and I'll explain why,

[00:36:26] because as I said,

[00:36:27] as I said,

[00:36:28] you've raised a really interesting point.

[00:36:29] I have tracks that I think sound from that.

[00:36:33] So I,

[00:36:34] I'm a mastering engineer.

[00:36:35] That's the bit I do in the process.

[00:36:36] Don't do any mixing,

[00:36:37] no recording.

[00:36:38] I'm a mastering engineer and I have songs that I know sound phenomenal and they sound great in here.

[00:36:46] And I know how they sound.

[00:36:47] And I have a list on my Apple music playlist of studio reference tracks.

[00:36:53] They are tracks that I know sound great.

[00:36:56] The bit that I think is different.

[00:36:58] And I think you actually use them in a very similar way to me is I,

[00:37:02] I used to have it where clients said,

[00:37:04] here's my album to mix.

[00:37:06] Here's my two reference tracks for you to reference against.

[00:37:08] And it's like,

[00:37:09] I don't want those.

[00:37:10] You are giving it to me to make it sound as good as I can based on the material you've given me.

[00:37:15] I know what good sounds like.

[00:37:17] Cause I've listened to 10,000 hours on these speakers.

[00:37:19] And I know,

[00:37:22] so I think there's a difference between people's perception of,

[00:37:26] I give you a track cause I want it to sound like that,

[00:37:29] which is what I really hate personally as a player and an inspirational or technical.

[00:37:36] I know this sounds good.

[00:37:38] How does my mix master,

[00:37:40] whatever stack up against that?

[00:37:43] Yes.

[00:37:44] And I think you and I are coming from the same place,

[00:37:46] but when people say to me,

[00:37:47] do you use reference tracks?

[00:37:48] I say,

[00:37:48] no,

[00:37:49] I don't.

[00:37:49] Cause I don't want them sending me a track for their project to say,

[00:37:55] here's my songs.

[00:37:56] I want it to sound like Nirvana bleach.

[00:37:58] And it's like,

[00:37:58] well,

[00:37:58] first off you're not Nirvana.

[00:38:00] Second off,

[00:38:01] you've written.

[00:38:02] There's a,

[00:38:02] there's a big difference between reference tracks and inspirational tracks.

[00:38:06] Right.

[00:38:06] Yeah.

[00:38:07] Yeah.

[00:38:07] So the,

[00:38:08] the whole,

[00:38:09] like,

[00:38:09] here's my band,

[00:38:10] here's what we did.

[00:38:11] And we love Nirvana here.

[00:38:13] You know,

[00:38:13] we want to sound like this.

[00:38:15] They're never going to sound like that,

[00:38:17] but that in the,

[00:38:19] in the creation phase is an excellent marker for someone to,

[00:38:22] you know,

[00:38:24] hold up against their music as they're creating their music.

[00:38:27] But when it comes to mixing or mastering,

[00:38:30] uh,

[00:38:31] that's not going to work.

[00:38:33] And that's not what that's for.

[00:38:34] Yeah.

[00:38:35] Yeah.

[00:38:35] It's an aesthetic thing as well.

[00:38:37] For me,

[00:38:37] it gives me an idea of,

[00:38:38] of where,

[00:38:40] you know,

[00:38:41] what my client thinks,

[00:38:43] you know,

[00:38:44] what sounds good to them.

[00:38:45] So it helps me.

[00:38:46] Cause you can't,

[00:38:47] you can't explain that in email particularly well,

[00:38:50] because the words around sound are so subjective and fluffy and airy fairy,

[00:38:57] you know,

[00:38:57] you,

[00:38:58] you,

[00:38:58] they mean different things to different people.

[00:39:01] So if I,

[00:39:02] if they could send me,

[00:39:03] um,

[00:39:05] uh,

[00:39:06] a link to a ref to attract a reference mix that can inform me on the,

[00:39:14] the energy,

[00:39:15] the vibe,

[00:39:16] the dynamics,

[00:39:17] the loudness,

[00:39:18] the,

[00:39:19] the parameters in terms of how low they like the lows,

[00:39:23] how high they like the highs,

[00:39:25] um,

[00:39:26] how,

[00:39:27] uh,

[00:39:28] you know,

[00:39:28] how buried they like the vocal or,

[00:39:31] you know,

[00:39:31] that it just gives me so much more information than trying to make sense of

[00:39:39] these,

[00:39:41] uh,

[00:39:42] subjective words.

[00:39:43] Yeah.

[00:39:44] So,

[00:39:44] um,

[00:39:45] I just got so used to working like,

[00:39:47] and even working at the BBC,

[00:39:50] my mentors,

[00:39:52] particularly if they were,

[00:39:53] we were going into a session with a particular,

[00:39:55] with a,

[00:39:56] you know,

[00:39:57] a very well-known artist,

[00:39:59] they would play a mix of their own that they'd done.

[00:40:04] Um,

[00:40:06] just to,

[00:40:07] that they know sounded great.

[00:40:09] They would take it home.

[00:40:09] They knew it sounded great wherever they listened to it at home,

[00:40:12] but they would play in the studio before getting to work really before setting,

[00:40:17] the session up.

[00:40:19] So.

[00:40:20] Was that so you could get the balance of how it sounded in that studio from an

[00:40:25] environment,

[00:40:25] you know?

[00:40:26] Yeah.

[00:40:26] On those monitors,

[00:40:28] you know,

[00:40:28] the,

[00:40:28] in that studio,

[00:40:30] you know,

[00:40:30] with the,

[00:40:30] in this,

[00:40:31] in the BBC,

[00:40:32] you know,

[00:40:32] in Maida Vale,

[00:40:33] there were,

[00:40:35] uh,

[00:40:36] in the,

[00:40:36] in the section of the BBC where I worked,

[00:40:39] we would work over,

[00:40:40] uh,

[00:40:43] three different,

[00:40:45] yeah,

[00:40:46] three different studio spaces,

[00:40:48] all of different sizes,

[00:40:51] um,

[00:40:53] with different monitoring.

[00:40:56] The,

[00:40:56] the,

[00:40:56] the,

[00:40:57] um,

[00:40:59] the sort of mid studio main speakers were different in each studio,

[00:41:03] but the near fields were the same.

[00:41:05] So that was something.

[00:41:07] So just to calibrate and the desks were different in some studios as well.

[00:41:13] So just to calibrate the ears really.

[00:41:16] Um,

[00:41:17] uh,

[00:41:18] to build up a more recent audio memory for sound in that studio on that equipment,

[00:41:25] which is another great reason,

[00:41:27] particularly in live sound for using references,

[00:41:29] uh,

[00:41:30] or,

[00:41:30] or if you work around many studios,

[00:41:33] if you are blessed to be able to do that,

[00:41:35] um,

[00:41:36] just being able to play a few seconds from,

[00:41:40] um,

[00:41:40] two or three reference tracks so that you can just get handle on,

[00:41:43] on the lows,

[00:41:44] um,

[00:41:44] um,

[00:41:45] on the highs and where,

[00:41:47] where the sort of vocal is gonna,

[00:41:50] where it feels,

[00:41:50] where it's gonna sit.

[00:41:51] Where's,

[00:41:51] where's that phantom center sitting?

[00:41:53] Yeah.

[00:41:54] Yeah.

[00:41:54] Yeah.

[00:41:55] And,

[00:41:55] and that sort of depth element as well,

[00:41:58] you know,

[00:41:59] not just width,

[00:42:00] but actually that,

[00:42:02] that,

[00:42:02] uh,

[00:42:03] the depth element in mixes.

[00:42:06] You said something early on,

[00:42:08] um,

[00:42:09] when you were talking about your,

[00:42:10] in,

[00:42:10] in the sort of beginning of the show and you had talked about,

[00:42:14] one day,

[00:42:15] the thought popped into your head about,

[00:42:17] boy,

[00:42:17] that kick drum,

[00:42:18] how did they get that sound?

[00:42:20] And I thought that that was actually a really beautiful tie in because a lot of times for me,

[00:42:26] kind of like what Ben does,

[00:42:28] I'll build a list of songs where I hear an element,

[00:42:31] a kick drum,

[00:42:32] a violin,

[00:42:33] a guitar,

[00:42:33] a vocal,

[00:42:34] a delay throw,

[00:42:36] something that,

[00:42:37] that sparks my interest.

[00:42:38] And I've put it into a playlist to go back and,

[00:42:42] and sort of listen to it,

[00:42:43] um,

[00:42:44] with critical ears and see what it is that I liked about that.

[00:42:48] And,

[00:42:48] and I'd say eight times out of 10,

[00:42:51] that track that initially grabbed my attention stays on that playlist for that reason.

[00:42:57] And,

[00:42:58] and,

[00:43:00] you know,

[00:43:00] it's sort of like a,

[00:43:01] um,

[00:43:02] like,

[00:43:03] like you were saying,

[00:43:03] kind of like a preset thing.

[00:43:05] Like,

[00:43:05] I like that kick drum and that kick drum sounded going to work in some capacity in some project.

[00:43:11] Right.

[00:43:12] And so now I have something I can listen to.

[00:43:15] Um,

[00:43:16] and I think that that's a,

[00:43:17] a really attainable way for people to utilize reference tracks because they're not bouncing around from studio to studio.

[00:43:23] Most people are not.

[00:43:24] Most people.

[00:43:25] No.

[00:43:25] And,

[00:43:26] and,

[00:43:26] um,

[00:43:27] you know,

[00:43:27] they may not really utilize reference tracks,

[00:43:30] um,

[00:43:31] at all,

[00:43:32] or maybe in the way that,

[00:43:33] that they think people utilize reference tracks,

[00:43:36] but,

[00:43:37] you know,

[00:43:37] picking up your favorite song and it has,

[00:43:39] you know,

[00:43:39] it has to be a song that you like,

[00:43:40] right?

[00:43:40] Cause if you don't like the song,

[00:43:41] then.

[00:43:42] Oh yeah.

[00:43:43] It's pointless.

[00:43:43] No,

[00:43:43] it's the point that it's,

[00:43:45] that it's,

[00:43:45] it's not useful to you,

[00:43:47] but if you like the song,

[00:43:49] it speaks to you and that element jumps out at you,

[00:43:51] a kick drum,

[00:43:52] a snare drum,

[00:43:53] a vocal,

[00:43:54] file it away,

[00:43:55] you know?

[00:43:56] Yeah.

[00:43:56] Grab that and,

[00:43:57] and save that for inspiration for,

[00:44:00] for creative spark.

[00:44:02] When you're thinking,

[00:44:03] oh,

[00:44:03] this mix needs something.

[00:44:05] Oh,

[00:44:06] I heard that one vocal on that one song.

[00:44:07] Let me go listen to that.

[00:44:09] And there's a delay throw in there.

[00:44:11] Ah,

[00:44:11] okay.

[00:44:12] I can try that.

[00:44:14] Yeah.

[00:44:14] You know,

[00:44:15] that,

[00:44:15] that could be that creative spark you were talking about.

[00:44:17] Um,

[00:44:18] but there's so many different ways to use reference tracks.

[00:44:21] Oh yeah.

[00:44:22] And we've touched on a few of them.

[00:44:25] So I,

[00:44:25] I wanted to throw that one out there because I thought that,

[00:44:28] that when you were talking earlier on,

[00:44:29] you said that about the kick drum and that one song.

[00:44:32] And I was like,

[00:44:32] that's perfect.

[00:44:34] Yeah.

[00:44:35] Yeah.

[00:44:35] Yeah.

[00:44:36] Yeah.

[00:44:36] I lost,

[00:44:37] Oh,

[00:44:38] I'm sorry.

[00:44:38] Go ahead.

[00:44:38] No,

[00:44:39] I was,

[00:44:39] I was just going to talk about the perspective change that you get when you,

[00:44:43] when you listen to a reference track,

[00:44:45] um,

[00:44:45] that sort of sudden shift in energy from your speakers,

[00:44:52] uh,

[00:44:53] into your ears,

[00:44:54] um,

[00:44:54] can really kickstart you.

[00:44:58] Or if,

[00:44:58] you know,

[00:44:59] if you get stuck,

[00:45:00] it can really get the creative juices flowing again.

[00:45:05] Um,

[00:45:07] and it's there.

[00:45:09] I often refer to them as being like goal posts.

[00:45:11] So it's,

[00:45:13] it just,

[00:45:15] in terms of the,

[00:45:16] the frequency balance of the mix,

[00:45:18] it should every so often I'll go back to a reference mix to the,

[00:45:22] to the reference track just to make sure I haven't pushed things,

[00:45:26] uh,

[00:45:27] too much in the,

[00:45:28] in the low end or in the high end.

[00:45:30] And,

[00:45:30] uh,

[00:45:33] while also at that point you changing perspective,

[00:45:37] which can really highlight when you go back to the mix,

[00:45:40] anything that other than that,

[00:45:42] that is potentially heading in the wrong direction.

[00:45:48] Uh,

[00:45:48] so when you're,

[00:45:49] when you're listening to those reference tracks against your music,

[00:45:52] um,

[00:45:54] or the,

[00:45:54] the song you're mixing,

[00:45:55] um,

[00:45:56] you're checking the high on the low end and whatnot.

[00:45:58] Are you also watching any metering?

[00:46:01] Am I watching any metering?

[00:46:07] Yeah,

[00:46:08] I guess,

[00:46:09] um,

[00:46:09] I may flick over to the sort of spectrum analyzer view.

[00:46:15] I use the metric AB plugin for my references.

[00:46:20] Okay.

[00:46:21] Um,

[00:46:21] and that tool provides,

[00:46:24] you know,

[00:46:26] half a dozen,

[00:46:26] maybe different meter meters to use for different things.

[00:46:31] Yeah.

[00:46:31] And they,

[00:46:31] they have the spectrum analyzer there,

[00:46:34] which you can set to various,

[00:46:38] to different,

[00:46:39] uh,

[00:46:39] either to different octaves or to the more traditional plot,

[00:46:43] um,

[00:46:44] uh,

[00:46:45] analysis.

[00:46:46] And I,

[00:46:47] I find that using that sort of octave,

[00:46:50] you know,

[00:46:50] the bar chart kind of view,

[00:46:52] um,

[00:46:53] and being able to compare can be informative.

[00:46:58] But to be honest,

[00:47:00] um,

[00:47:01] I think because of the stage I'm at and the amount of experience I've had,

[00:47:05] that view doesn't change much when I flick between a reference and the mix.

[00:47:11] I think I'm close enough there,

[00:47:13] but it can be really useful for people that,

[00:47:15] that aren't,

[00:47:16] haven't mixed for,

[00:47:17] for as long and want some sort of clue as to where they should look to,

[00:47:23] uh,

[00:47:24] to,

[00:47:24] to,

[00:47:24] you know,

[00:47:24] fix that muddy,

[00:47:26] muddy low end.

[00:47:28] Um,

[00:47:30] that sort of metering can really help with that.

[00:47:33] Um,

[00:47:35] so yeah,

[00:47:37] uh,

[00:47:38] when referencing maybe stereo,

[00:47:41] stereo width,

[00:47:43] maybe,

[00:47:44] uh,

[00:47:45] and,

[00:47:46] um,

[00:47:48] checking the correlation meter just to make sure there's nothing odd there in

[00:47:52] terms of phase.

[00:47:54] Yeah.

[00:47:55] Well,

[00:47:56] I,

[00:47:56] you know,

[00:47:56] I asked because,

[00:47:57] um,

[00:47:58] two weeks ago I was listening to the new Billie Eilish record and I've always

[00:48:05] been a big fan of,

[00:48:06] of,

[00:48:07] of her music and what she does with her brother.

[00:48:10] And so I brought up my,

[00:48:13] my metering plugin to just sort of see what was happening because it sounded

[00:48:18] wonderful.

[00:48:19] And I wanted to see what the meters were telling me as far as,

[00:48:23] you know,

[00:48:24] the spectrum analyzer and,

[00:48:25] and,

[00:48:25] um,

[00:48:27] width and all that and correlation.

[00:48:29] Uh,

[00:48:29] and,

[00:48:30] um,

[00:48:31] there was the,

[00:48:32] the,

[00:48:33] what I was hearing didn't quite match up to what I was seeing on the

[00:48:39] spectrum analyzer as far as high end and,

[00:48:41] and certainly low end.

[00:48:43] There was so much low end.

[00:48:46] And in the high end,

[00:48:48] I saw on a lot of those songs dropped off dramatically after like,

[00:48:53] I don't know,

[00:48:54] 12 K,

[00:48:55] 15 K,

[00:48:56] but it didn't sound like that.

[00:48:58] And so that's what my brain was trying to,

[00:49:01] to sort of process is it doesn't sound muffled.

[00:49:06] It doesn't sound stifled in the high end.

[00:49:08] It sounds clear.

[00:49:10] And,

[00:49:10] and I hear some semblance of air and breath in,

[00:49:15] in the high end,

[00:49:16] but that's not what the meter showing me.

[00:49:19] So I was really confused by that.

[00:49:22] Yeah,

[00:49:22] no,

[00:49:22] I think that's a fair point.

[00:49:24] And it's something that I've noticed as well.

[00:49:27] Um,

[00:49:28] the,

[00:49:29] to tell people or suggest that people not be so reliant on spectrum

[00:49:35] analyzers because exactly what you've said,

[00:49:40] what you're hearing doesn't correlate with what you're seeing.

[00:49:43] It's,

[00:49:43] it just doesn't make sense.

[00:49:45] So the use of spectrum analyzers in,

[00:49:48] in my opinion is just,

[00:49:51] to give you a little clues,

[00:49:52] just,

[00:49:53] you know,

[00:49:53] if you see something,

[00:49:55] it'll help you pinpoint siblings.

[00:49:57] It'll help you pinpoint,

[00:49:58] you know,

[00:49:59] some,

[00:49:59] something you're hearing in the mix,

[00:50:02] something,

[00:50:03] you know,

[00:50:03] you'll see it,

[00:50:04] something really kind of,

[00:50:05] and so,

[00:50:07] um,

[00:50:09] they're useful for that.

[00:50:10] But if you're trying to match a mix,

[00:50:13] if you were to do that,

[00:50:14] if you were to have two different,

[00:50:16] two different mixes and,

[00:50:18] you know,

[00:50:18] or a mix and a reference track,

[00:50:19] and you were then trying to EQ your mix to,

[00:50:22] to match in terms of the spectrum analyzer,

[00:50:26] it just wouldn't,

[00:50:27] it just wouldn't work.

[00:50:29] Yeah.

[00:50:29] Well,

[00:50:29] and there's,

[00:50:30] there's those EQ matching plugins that allow you to do just that.

[00:50:33] Yeah.

[00:50:34] Yeah.

[00:50:35] And I'm not going to say,

[00:50:37] I know,

[00:50:38] I know.

[00:50:38] I'm not going to,

[00:50:38] I'm not going to go too far down.

[00:50:39] I'm not going to say who does this.

[00:50:41] I think everyone knows that do that.

[00:50:43] Yeah.

[00:50:43] Why?

[00:50:44] I've been out of the mixing game for so long.

[00:50:48] You can load up a reference track into this plugin and it will capture the

[00:50:53] overall,

[00:50:53] you know,

[00:50:54] EQ curve,

[00:50:55] um,

[00:50:56] from any,

[00:50:57] I'm not sure if it's an average or if you can pick it from a point,

[00:51:00] uh,

[00:51:00] in the song,

[00:51:01] but then you can literally take that EQ curve and apply it to your song.

[00:51:05] And that might be great for,

[00:51:07] um,

[00:51:08] for things like this,

[00:51:09] for,

[00:51:09] for,

[00:51:10] you know,

[00:51:10] uh,

[00:51:11] talking podcasts.

[00:51:13] Um,

[00:51:13] if you have some,

[00:51:14] you know,

[00:51:15] someone on your show,

[00:51:16] that's wildly out of,

[00:51:17] you know,

[00:51:18] touch with their EQ.

[00:51:19] Okay.

[00:51:20] You can reign that in,

[00:51:20] but like with music,

[00:51:22] I don't see how that's useful.

[00:51:24] I,

[00:51:25] I,

[00:51:26] if someone wants to chime in and send us an email as to like how wrong I am

[00:51:30] on this.

[00:51:31] Great.

[00:51:31] Do that.

[00:51:32] But I don't see how it's useful.

[00:51:34] Uh,

[00:51:34] I think so.

[00:51:35] I do.

[00:51:36] I can think of the use of it.

[00:51:37] If you're doing,

[00:51:38] if you're doing an album or,

[00:51:39] or an EP and you've mixed all of it and you just want some,

[00:51:44] and it basically,

[00:51:44] it's all recorded at the same time.

[00:51:45] It's all the same.

[00:51:46] And you just want to give it a slight continuity.

[00:51:49] Add that consistency to an overall record.

[00:51:51] So you do all your mixes,

[00:51:52] you get all your tracks done.

[00:51:53] And then as part of the mix or master,

[00:51:56] you take one as your primary track,

[00:51:58] and then you use 8%,

[00:52:00] 10% of just having it all pitch the same way.

[00:52:04] I can get it.

[00:52:05] I,

[00:52:06] I get it.

[00:52:06] I mean,

[00:52:07] if that's what you want to do.

[00:52:09] But to the other side of that,

[00:52:09] isn't,

[00:52:10] isn't,

[00:52:10] um,

[00:52:11] you know,

[00:52:11] having some variety and,

[00:52:13] and maybe,

[00:52:13] you know,

[00:52:13] having a song that is just not,

[00:52:15] doesn't sound at all like the rest of the,

[00:52:17] the,

[00:52:17] the record.

[00:52:18] Isn't that sort of the fun of.

[00:52:19] That's not modern music,

[00:52:20] mate.

[00:52:21] What are you talking about?

[00:52:22] That's called the seventies,

[00:52:23] my friend.

[00:52:25] Good Lord.

[00:52:28] Um,

[00:52:29] I think,

[00:52:29] I think these,

[00:52:30] these tools are amazing,

[00:52:31] but like they need to be just used as tools.

[00:52:35] Like instead of.

[00:52:37] Right.

[00:52:38] We,

[00:52:39] if you go and if you've,

[00:52:41] it'd be a red flag as,

[00:52:43] as you said,

[00:52:44] Ben,

[00:52:44] um,

[00:52:45] you know,

[00:52:45] using no more than 8% or something.

[00:52:47] It'd be a red flag.

[00:52:49] If you found that you were having to use double digits in terms of the present,

[00:52:53] you know,

[00:52:53] mixed percentage of,

[00:52:55] of one of these sort of matching type plugins.

[00:52:58] Um,

[00:52:59] and.

[00:53:00] That would be a signal to go back to the mix and start looking at it a little bit more

[00:53:05] critically,

[00:53:06] uh,

[00:53:07] to find out why it's so wildly different.

[00:53:10] Um,

[00:53:12] but I do get that,

[00:53:12] you know,

[00:53:13] that sort of using,

[00:53:15] uh,

[00:53:16] an EQ plugin or a matching plugin like that.

[00:53:20] Um,

[00:53:22] just to bring the mixes closer together in terms of consistency across an album.

[00:53:27] that would be a reasonable use.

[00:53:28] Uh,

[00:53:29] definitely.

[00:53:30] It's about the only reasonable use I can think of,

[00:53:33] but.

[00:53:33] Well,

[00:53:34] yeah,

[00:53:34] so there's one.

[00:53:35] Okay.

[00:53:36] Um,

[00:53:37] but I,

[00:53:37] I think for someone to take a song,

[00:53:40] like let's say a Billie Eilish song and apply that EQ curve to their song,

[00:53:45] it's not going to make you sound like Billie Eilish.

[00:53:47] No.

[00:53:48] Cause there is some very clever mastering going on on that album,

[00:53:51] by the way.

[00:53:51] Oh,

[00:53:52] I'm sure.

[00:53:52] That is,

[00:53:53] um,

[00:53:53] that's quite a piece of magic.

[00:53:55] Yeah.

[00:53:55] There's a lot of mid side magic.

[00:53:58] Yeah.

[00:53:59] That,

[00:54:00] and that,

[00:54:01] that,

[00:54:01] that's another topic for another day,

[00:54:03] but I love,

[00:54:04] I love the black magic of mid side.

[00:54:07] It is,

[00:54:07] it is interesting.

[00:54:09] It is fun.

[00:54:10] What you can come up with.

[00:54:13] Yeah.

[00:54:13] That's another topic for another day.

[00:54:16] Uh,

[00:54:17] I mean,

[00:54:17] just on that,

[00:54:18] I don't think I've done a master in the last five years where I haven't

[00:54:21] mid side.

[00:54:22] I haven't used mid side.

[00:54:23] I mean,

[00:54:23] it is standard core sort of trade for a mastering engineer is just being

[00:54:29] able to do that.

[00:54:30] Yeah.

[00:54:31] There you go.

[00:54:32] So do you,

[00:54:33] do you,

[00:54:33] do you pick out anything from your reference tracks,

[00:54:36] uh,

[00:54:37] and,

[00:54:37] and analyze the mid side to,

[00:54:39] to then take that?

[00:54:41] No,

[00:54:41] actually.

[00:54:42] Um,

[00:54:43] I think that's really great in a,

[00:54:45] in a critical listening environment when,

[00:54:47] when you're training your ear.

[00:54:49] Um,

[00:54:49] that's a really great thing to do.

[00:54:51] And metric AB makes that really easy to do that.

[00:54:54] And it was sort of many other plugin songs.

[00:54:57] You can solo the sides and solo the mids.

[00:54:59] Um,

[00:55:00] that is a great practice,

[00:55:01] ear training practice.

[00:55:03] Um,

[00:55:04] yeah,

[00:55:04] in real life,

[00:55:05] in,

[00:55:05] you know,

[00:55:06] everyday life.

[00:55:06] I don't,

[00:55:07] um,

[00:55:07] um,

[00:55:08] I don't use it.

[00:55:09] I don't use it reference tracks that way.

[00:55:13] Um,

[00:55:15] that's to give you the training is a really,

[00:55:16] your training is a great thing.

[00:55:18] Uh,

[00:55:18] and,

[00:55:19] and maybe we talk about that for a brief moment because I think that when people are thinking

[00:55:23] about reference tracks,

[00:55:24] when they're thinking about their favorite songs,

[00:55:26] they,

[00:55:27] they know the songs from a casual perspective.

[00:55:30] Maybe they've grown up with that song.

[00:55:31] They know every word,

[00:55:33] but when you,

[00:55:34] when it comes down to critically listening to that song,

[00:55:37] that is a totally different,

[00:55:38] you know,

[00:55:39] mindset,

[00:55:41] um,

[00:55:42] from a fan perspective and enjoying the music.

[00:55:45] And learning how to listen to those elements is something that is not always easy to do.

[00:55:53] And having a,

[00:55:55] a,

[00:55:56] um,

[00:55:56] having a sort of like correlation between what you're hearing and maybe what you're seeing with metering,

[00:56:03] or,

[00:56:03] um,

[00:56:05] if you have a mid side plugin that can solo the sides and keep that information on the sides,

[00:56:10] because I think that that,

[00:56:12] that really tells you what's happening on the sides,

[00:56:16] uh,

[00:56:17] you know,

[00:56:18] channel of,

[00:56:19] of everything.

[00:56:20] And I don't like how some of those plugins will take the mid side and collapse it into the center,

[00:56:25] because then you lose that,

[00:56:27] you lose that perspective,

[00:56:28] uh,

[00:56:29] and it doesn't sound the same.

[00:56:31] Um,

[00:56:32] so I,

[00:56:32] all of that to say,

[00:56:33] I think that,

[00:56:34] uh,

[00:56:35] ear training is really great for people to,

[00:56:37] to really do so that they can learn how to critically listen to frequencies and,

[00:56:43] you know,

[00:56:44] understanding what frequencies does a kick drum take up?

[00:56:47] What do those frequencies actually sound like?

[00:56:50] You know,

[00:56:50] and,

[00:56:50] and learning to identify what that sounds like.

[00:56:53] And that will,

[00:56:54] that will go a long way in,

[00:56:56] uh,

[00:56:57] allowing someone to move forward in,

[00:57:00] in how to listen to music critically and then apply that to their project.

[00:57:05] Yeah.

[00:57:06] Yeah,

[00:57:07] definitely.

[00:57:08] Um,

[00:57:10] I think depending on what stage you are in your learning,

[00:57:14] um,

[00:57:14] um,

[00:57:15] that being really conscious about building up those skills is really important.

[00:57:21] Um,

[00:57:23] um,

[00:57:23] and maybe in the earlier stages of,

[00:57:25] of your,

[00:57:26] uh,

[00:57:27] experience,

[00:57:28] you might do it more often than,

[00:57:30] well,

[00:57:30] you would,

[00:57:31] I would hope do it more often than you,

[00:57:33] than,

[00:57:34] than someone who's been doing it for many years.

[00:57:36] Um,

[00:57:37] but,

[00:57:37] um,

[00:57:39] it's so crucially important because it all builds into the knock on effect.

[00:57:46] is that you're making your decisions faster.

[00:57:49] Again,

[00:57:50] you're mixing,

[00:57:51] therefore you're mixing faster.

[00:57:52] You're in that flow state.

[00:57:54] Um,

[00:57:55] and you're able to problem solve a lot more efficiently.

[00:58:00] And all that stems from your listening skills.

[00:58:05] And so it takes some input from you to be able to,

[00:58:10] to,

[00:58:11] if you're really serious about this,

[00:58:13] to put the time and effort in to learn and to train your ears,

[00:58:17] just like a musician would sit down and play and learn and practice their instrument.

[00:58:21] As mix engineers or mastering engineers,

[00:58:24] as music producers,

[00:58:26] we really should be doing the same thing.

[00:58:27] And just,

[00:58:29] it doesn't have to be a,

[00:58:30] a,

[00:58:30] a long spell of time.

[00:58:32] It could only be 15 minutes,

[00:58:34] but if,

[00:58:35] as long as you can do it consistently and,

[00:58:38] um,

[00:58:39] take the time to really analyze mixes from abroad,

[00:58:45] from a zoomed out perspective,

[00:58:48] listening to the mix as a whole,

[00:58:49] um,

[00:58:50] and asking yourself questions through that playback,

[00:58:53] you know,

[00:58:54] what do I like,

[00:58:55] um,

[00:58:56] or,

[00:58:57] or,

[00:58:57] recognizing something coming in on a particular,

[00:59:00] on a new section of the song.

[00:59:02] And you think that sounds great.

[00:59:04] I love how they've done that.

[00:59:06] And,

[00:59:06] you know,

[00:59:07] how have they done that?

[00:59:08] And,

[00:59:08] and thinking about it and,

[00:59:11] you know,

[00:59:11] write notes,

[00:59:12] write,

[00:59:13] write,

[00:59:13] if writing is your thing,

[00:59:14] because that,

[00:59:15] that,

[00:59:15] that's,

[00:59:16] you know,

[00:59:16] there's something magical happens.

[00:59:20] Yeah.

[00:59:20] When you put pen to paper,

[00:59:22] the analog experience is much,

[00:59:25] it goes deeper in the psyche.

[00:59:27] I think,

[00:59:27] than,

[00:59:27] than just typing it on a,

[00:59:29] on a digital notebook,

[00:59:31] you know,

[00:59:31] on your computer somewhere.

[00:59:33] Yeah.

[00:59:34] Because you have to,

[00:59:35] you can't,

[00:59:38] you can't think of anything else in that moment,

[00:59:42] other than the words you're writing.

[00:59:45] So there's no other distraction in that,

[00:59:48] in that instance of you thinking about those words.

[00:59:53] And I think that just goes deeper than,

[00:59:57] as I said,

[00:59:57] than typing it on,

[00:59:58] typing on your computer and,

[01:00:00] and up comes a notification.

[01:00:01] And,

[01:00:02] oh,

[01:00:02] you got a new email from someone.

[01:00:04] And I,

[01:00:05] there's a lot to be,

[01:00:07] to said,

[01:00:08] a lot to be said for that,

[01:00:09] I think,

[01:00:11] um,

[01:00:12] in helping in that critical listening circumstance.

[01:00:16] Um,

[01:00:17] and,

[01:00:17] and it's the,

[01:00:18] it's the foundation for everything.

[01:00:19] So,

[01:00:20] so it mustn't be ignored.

[01:00:22] And I think the more you can do that critical listening in the same environment all the time.

[01:00:27] Oh yeah.

[01:00:28] Makes such a difference.

[01:00:29] Yes.

[01:00:30] On the,

[01:00:31] on the monitors in your studio.

[01:00:33] Um,

[01:00:35] you know,

[01:00:35] what comes before the critical listening is your,

[01:00:39] your environment,

[01:00:40] your listening environment.

[01:00:41] Um,

[01:00:42] and,

[01:00:43] and obviously the state of your ears,

[01:00:45] it depends on how old you are,

[01:00:46] you know,

[01:00:46] if you've got any hearing damage and,

[01:00:48] you know,

[01:00:49] all that.

[01:00:49] But,

[01:00:49] you've got to make sure that you can,

[01:00:52] your listening environment is,

[01:00:55] as accurate as you can afford to make it.

[01:01:00] And,

[01:01:01] otherwise,

[01:01:02] you,

[01:01:02] you're just being told lies,

[01:01:04] really,

[01:01:05] by the,

[01:01:05] by the room that you're in.

[01:01:07] And you're making decisions on wrong information.

[01:01:10] So,

[01:01:11] yeah,

[01:01:12] when you reverse engineer it,

[01:01:14] um,

[01:01:15] yeah,

[01:01:16] the room acoustics,

[01:01:17] it plays a huge part in,

[01:01:19] critical listening exercises,

[01:01:22] you know,

[01:01:23] sure you can,

[01:01:23] you can use headphones,

[01:01:25] uh,

[01:01:26] which arguably may be a better,

[01:01:28] uh,

[01:01:29] way of practicing,

[01:01:31] uh,

[01:01:32] those sorts of exercises.

[01:01:34] Uh,

[01:01:34] so long as you can trust your headphones and you know how your headphones sound and you've listened to lots of music through them.

[01:01:40] Um,

[01:01:43] yeah,

[01:01:43] I,

[01:01:43] I think it's a skill that can often get leapfrogged.

[01:01:48] You know,

[01:01:49] uh,

[01:01:49] people just want to get into the good stuff and buy more plugins and,

[01:01:53] you know,

[01:01:54] uh,

[01:01:55] and then at the end of the,

[01:01:57] end of the day,

[01:01:58] they're,

[01:01:58] they're kind of like,

[01:01:59] why,

[01:01:59] why doesn't it sound,

[01:02:00] it just doesn't sound right.

[01:02:02] And,

[01:02:03] you know,

[01:02:04] they've not started out with a goal for the mix.

[01:02:06] They've not,

[01:02:07] you know,

[01:02:08] they,

[01:02:08] they,

[01:02:09] uh,

[01:02:10] you know,

[01:02:10] the room may not be the best room in the world,

[01:02:13] a cube.

[01:02:14] And,

[01:02:15] um,

[01:02:16] uh,

[01:02:17] they just haven't quite got the hours in,

[01:02:20] in terms of understanding frequencies to be able to apply EQ,

[01:02:25] um,

[01:02:27] correctly.

[01:02:27] So,

[01:02:28] yeah.

[01:02:29] Well,

[01:02:29] I think the biggest thing there,

[01:02:31] uh,

[01:02:32] aside from room acoustics,

[01:02:34] let's not dive into that.

[01:02:37] Yeah.

[01:02:37] That's,

[01:02:38] Ooh,

[01:02:39] yeah.

[01:02:40] Is the hours.

[01:02:40] It's,

[01:02:41] it's just a game of time,

[01:02:44] right?

[01:02:45] Yeah.

[01:02:45] Yeah.

[01:02:45] You,

[01:02:46] you,

[01:02:46] you,

[01:02:46] you can force feed yourself YouTube videos all day long,

[01:02:50] but until you actually clock in the hours.

[01:02:54] And like Ben said,

[01:02:56] 10,000 is probably the best place to start.

[01:02:59] And that's,

[01:03:00] you know,

[01:03:01] for a lot of people that do this.

[01:03:03] That's a long time.

[01:03:03] That is a long time.

[01:03:04] Years.

[01:03:05] Years.

[01:03:07] Yes.

[01:03:07] So,

[01:03:08] but how do you,

[01:03:09] how do,

[01:03:10] you know,

[01:03:11] how do you,

[01:03:12] that's really disheartening for.

[01:03:15] Yeah.

[01:03:16] Beginners for,

[01:03:17] or for intermediate mixes,

[01:03:18] even who know,

[01:03:19] you know,

[01:03:19] that they've got day jobs.

[01:03:22] And families.

[01:03:24] Yeah.

[01:03:25] You have to,

[01:03:25] you have to move,

[01:03:26] then you have to learn your speakers all over again in a new room.

[01:03:29] Yeah.

[01:03:29] Yeah.

[01:03:30] Or that can be,

[01:03:31] that can be exciting because maybe you're moving to a better space.

[01:03:33] Right.

[01:03:34] That could be too.

[01:03:35] Not,

[01:03:35] not like if your space is bigger,

[01:03:37] then you've got more reflections or like,

[01:03:39] like when I first started mixing,

[01:03:42] I was in a walk-in closet and that with all the clothes and everything in there,

[01:03:48] it was a dead space already.

[01:03:49] And so it was great.

[01:03:51] It was great.

[01:03:52] My speaker sounded amazing.

[01:03:53] And then I,

[01:03:54] I,

[01:03:54] we bought a house and I got my own room for a studio.

[01:03:57] And that thing,

[01:03:59] my speakers didn't sound the same.

[01:04:01] I had to sit there.

[01:04:01] It was a little frustrating,

[01:04:02] but oh,

[01:04:05] PSA you,

[01:04:06] you had mentioned your hearing,

[01:04:10] making sure that you're,

[01:04:11] you know,

[01:04:12] your hearing is healthy and whatnot.

[01:04:14] I see so many people,

[01:04:15] whether they're in the studio or live,

[01:04:17] they have one ear in and one ear out when,

[01:04:21] with the headphones,

[01:04:22] with earbuds.

[01:04:24] And you should not do that because one ear in one ear out.

[01:04:29] If you're listening to music in one ear that you're,

[01:04:31] you're going to just automatically turn it up way too loud and you're going to hurt your,

[01:04:36] you're going to hurt your hearing.

[01:04:37] And I see this in live music all the time.

[01:04:39] I see people with,

[01:04:40] with one ear out one ear in because they want to hear the stage.

[01:04:43] They want to hear the audience.

[01:04:44] And I understand that.

[01:04:45] And I like that too.

[01:04:47] But if you've got two ears,

[01:04:50] if you got one ear out,

[01:04:52] your hearing is going to be compensated by the different,

[01:04:55] excuse me,

[01:04:55] the difference in loudness.

[01:04:57] And you're going to want to turn that volume up.

[01:05:00] And I was wondering for,

[01:05:01] for years,

[01:05:03] why my hearing,

[01:05:04] my ears hurt after a show.

[01:05:06] And it was because I just had it up way too loud when I plugged in the other one

[01:05:09] and I turned it down.

[01:05:12] Save your hearing.

[01:05:13] Don't,

[01:05:13] don't use just one ear in one ear out.

[01:05:15] PSA.

[01:05:16] To that point,

[01:05:17] go and go to an audiologist and get your hearing checked and,

[01:05:20] and plot it out on a graph.

[01:05:22] One of the,

[01:05:23] one of the most amazing experiences I had was when I went to my audiologist and said,

[01:05:28] give me a hearing test with the full audio spectrum,

[01:05:31] you know,

[01:05:31] 20 to 20.

[01:05:33] Not just the,

[01:05:34] you know,

[01:05:34] the,

[01:05:34] the typical,

[01:05:36] what?

[01:05:53] And I was surprised to hear that,

[01:05:55] that,

[01:05:56] and she,

[01:05:56] she was surprised too.

[01:05:58] She's like,

[01:05:58] your hearing drops off at like 17 K.

[01:06:01] I'm like,

[01:06:01] wow,

[01:06:02] I didn't know that.

[01:06:03] That's pretty good.

[01:06:04] Uh,

[01:06:06] for,

[01:06:06] for being 42 years old,

[01:06:07] I didn't think that,

[01:06:08] uh,

[01:06:09] I had that much hearing up there.

[01:06:10] So maybe I don't anymore,

[01:06:12] but you know,

[01:06:13] I actually had this,

[01:06:13] I had the same thing done because I had one ear out,

[01:06:16] one ear in,

[01:06:17] I didn't realize that that was the actual problem.

[01:06:18] And I,

[01:06:19] I actually had to,

[01:06:20] I got my hearing checked because,

[01:06:22] you know,

[01:06:23] when you have music that loud,

[01:06:24] your ear naturally compresses and you think,

[01:06:27] Oh,

[01:06:27] where's the volume?

[01:06:27] And then you turn it up even louder.

[01:06:29] And I was,

[01:06:30] I was getting ringing in one ear.

[01:06:32] So I had it checked and they're like,

[01:06:34] well,

[01:06:34] your hearing is perfect.

[01:06:36] And I think it was like 17 K or around there.

[01:06:39] It was when it was dropped,

[01:06:40] dropping off.

[01:06:41] And,

[01:06:41] um,

[01:06:42] they're like,

[01:06:42] you just,

[01:06:43] you know,

[01:06:44] you have selective hearing then,

[01:06:45] I guess.

[01:06:46] Yeah.

[01:06:48] volume is amazing though,

[01:06:49] isn't it?

[01:06:49] Cause I'm assuming you level match your reference tracks because otherwise,

[01:06:54] I mean,

[01:06:55] apart from that.

[01:06:56] It's not,

[01:06:56] it's,

[01:06:56] it's just not,

[01:06:57] it's not giving you accurate information otherwise.

[01:07:00] Yeah.

[01:07:01] Um,

[01:07:01] you have to level match.

[01:07:02] Yes.

[01:07:03] Has to be,

[01:07:04] um,

[01:07:06] you know,

[01:07:06] we,

[01:07:06] we,

[01:07:07] we hear frequencies differently at different loudnesses levels.

[01:07:11] Yeah.

[01:07:12] Yeah.

[01:07:13] The Fletcher Munson curve,

[01:07:14] right?

[01:07:14] Exactly.

[01:07:15] Yeah.

[01:07:16] Uh,

[01:07:16] so you've got to listen like for like to,

[01:07:19] to get the true comparison and,

[01:07:23] um,

[01:07:24] yeah,

[01:07:25] it's,

[01:07:26] it's pointless otherwise.

[01:07:30] And yeah,

[01:07:30] I think the,

[01:07:32] the interesting thing about all of this with reference tracks is it's very easy.

[01:07:38] You were saying not,

[01:07:38] not to get disheartened by,

[01:07:40] cause you haven't put 10,000 hours.

[01:07:41] You don't need to put 10,000 hours in your speaker.

[01:07:43] It's just the more tight,

[01:07:46] it's an analogy,

[01:07:47] isn't it?

[01:07:47] The more time you put in,

[01:07:48] the more you will understand what you're listening to,

[01:07:50] but it's like,

[01:07:51] it's not going to happen.

[01:07:53] It's not going to happen overnight.

[01:07:54] Right.

[01:07:55] Exactly.

[01:07:55] That's the key takeaway there.

[01:07:56] Is this not,

[01:07:57] if you're not going to buy a set of plugins that have been,

[01:08:01] you know,

[01:08:02] endorsed by somebody,

[01:08:03] it's not just going to happen.

[01:08:05] It takes time.

[01:08:06] However many hours.

[01:08:07] You put a mix and then you bring up a mix by Bob Clear Mountain and you think,

[01:08:10] why doesn't mine sound like that?

[01:08:12] First off,

[01:08:12] your tracks probably weren't recorded like that.

[01:08:14] We won't get into that because.

[01:08:15] Well,

[01:08:15] there's many good reasons why your mix doesn't sound like Bob's.

[01:08:18] We,

[01:08:19] we,

[01:08:19] we spoke to Mike senior and had a whole conversation about recording and

[01:08:23] microphones.

[01:08:24] And so first off,

[01:08:26] yours wasn't recorded like that,

[01:08:27] but second,

[01:08:27] you're not Bob Clear Mountain either.

[01:08:29] So,

[01:08:30] you know,

[01:08:31] and you haven't,

[01:08:32] probably you're not sitting in one of the best studios in the world,

[01:08:35] massively acoustically treated.

[01:08:37] And with his,

[01:08:38] whatever it is,

[01:08:39] 10,000 hours plus experience.

[01:08:41] So yeah,

[01:08:42] I think you don't have his ears.

[01:08:45] Yeah.

[01:08:45] Yeah.

[01:08:45] So it's not to get disheartened.

[01:08:47] I didn't mean that you can only start mixing if you've got thousands of

[01:08:50] hours listening.

[01:08:50] Cause I think lots of people who listen to this will probably,

[01:08:53] they're probably mixing on headphones because they haven't got a room with

[01:08:56] monitors.

[01:08:57] But my thing would be just listen to music on those headphones,

[01:09:01] listen to your favorite songs on those.

[01:09:03] So when you go to mix,

[01:09:04] you know what they sound like.

[01:09:07] Yes.

[01:09:08] Yes,

[01:09:09] absolutely.

[01:09:11] And that's the value of reference tracks as well.

[01:09:14] You know,

[01:09:15] it's because you know those headphones as well as you do now,

[01:09:22] you're able to do that cross reference so much easier.

[01:09:27] And it should help you make decisions.

[01:09:30] And then coupled with the critical listening by,

[01:09:34] you know,

[01:09:35] you can take high pass and low pass filters and you can really,

[01:09:38] you can listen to commercial tracks and you can really just focus in on the

[01:09:42] lows,

[01:09:43] on the low mids,

[01:09:44] on the upper mids,

[01:09:45] on,

[01:09:46] you know,

[01:09:46] you can really put 15 minutes a day in listening to tracks and asking yourself

[01:09:55] questions about what you can hear,

[01:09:58] what you notice.

[01:10:02] And that's just,

[01:10:03] that's just going to be so helpful for you to,

[01:10:09] then when you zoom out and you listen to a mix,

[01:10:12] you know,

[01:10:12] full fat,

[01:10:13] full spectrum,

[01:10:15] it's really going to help you pinpoint and,

[01:10:19] and it will happen.

[01:10:20] It will be the more you do it,

[01:10:22] the more you focus consciously listening to a full mixer and analyzing it,

[01:10:29] you know,

[01:10:30] listening to the kick drum,

[01:10:32] listening to the bass guitar,

[01:10:34] you know,

[01:10:34] is it other lows of the kick,

[01:10:36] the lowest element in the mix,

[01:10:37] or is it the bass that's taking that,

[01:10:39] that,

[01:10:39] that,

[01:10:41] uh,

[01:10:41] all the low end energy,

[01:10:43] um,

[01:10:44] listen to the guitars,

[01:10:45] the low end of the guitars.

[01:10:46] Are you actually hearing the low end of the guitars or is it the upper end of

[01:10:49] the bass that's filling that information in for you?

[01:10:52] So it's,

[01:10:54] it's be that critical thinking,

[01:10:57] critical listening,

[01:10:59] decision-making,

[01:11:00] um,

[01:11:02] is just the foundation of,

[01:11:07] you know,

[01:11:08] better mixes at the end of the day,

[01:11:10] really.

[01:11:10] And even though you haven't got the 10,000 hours,

[01:11:13] just doing a few minutes a day,

[01:11:16] it won't be that long before you're actually noticing the,

[01:11:20] the,

[01:11:20] the leaps and bounds you have made,

[01:11:22] um,

[01:11:23] from when you first started.

[01:11:25] If there was some way,

[01:11:27] maybe there's some way you could actually,

[01:11:29] uh,

[01:11:29] log your progress.

[01:11:31] Um,

[01:11:31] I can't think of anything off the top of my head,

[01:11:33] but some,

[01:11:34] some way then that you could go back and go,

[01:11:37] well,

[01:11:37] six months ago,

[01:11:39] this is what I thought.

[01:11:41] Um,

[01:11:42] but now I think completely differently and look how this mix sounds now.

[01:11:46] You know,

[01:11:47] I don't,

[01:11:47] I can't,

[01:11:48] I wish there was a way to do,

[01:11:50] to,

[01:11:50] to be able to do that.

[01:11:51] I mean,

[01:11:51] what we do,

[01:11:52] there must,

[01:11:52] must be some sort of way,

[01:11:53] but to be able to look at your progress.

[01:11:56] Retrospectively.

[01:11:57] Certainly you can go back and look at your mixes from six months.

[01:12:00] Yeah.

[01:12:01] Right.

[01:12:01] Yeah,

[01:12:01] absolutely.

[01:12:02] And you could remix it.

[01:12:03] Over time you should get better.

[01:12:04] Yeah.

[01:12:05] Um,

[01:12:05] I would caution though,

[01:12:09] using reference tracks too much maybe.

[01:12:12] Cause.

[01:12:13] Yeah.

[01:12:13] Um,

[01:12:14] I remember I lost a mix contest years ago cause we had a punk song and there was like 33 mix engineers.

[01:12:22] And I,

[01:12:23] I was,

[01:12:24] I think I got third place.

[01:12:26] And I think the reason why was because I used a green day song.

[01:12:31] And I noticed how buried the vocal was in the green day song.

[01:12:35] And I copied that my guitar tone was spot on.

[01:12:38] Everything was spot on,

[01:12:39] but the vocal was just buried just a little too much for everybody else's taste.

[01:12:44] And I think I got third place because of that.

[01:12:47] Yeah.

[01:12:47] Well,

[01:12:47] you said one,

[01:12:48] you said one really critical word and that was taste.

[01:12:52] Yeah.

[01:12:53] That's all of this,

[01:12:55] all of this reference tracks.

[01:12:57] This is 101%.

[01:13:01] Subjective.

[01:13:02] Yeah.

[01:13:03] Right.

[01:13:03] That is,

[01:13:04] that is where you think you've lost.

[01:13:06] You,

[01:13:06] you,

[01:13:07] you,

[01:13:07] you had a flaw there,

[01:13:08] but really it's just what it comes down to taste,

[01:13:12] you know?

[01:13:13] So those people that listened to that song didn't like how it was buried,

[01:13:16] but in reality,

[01:13:17] it's a perfectly good song.

[01:13:19] And that mix,

[01:13:20] I'm sure we'll stand up against others just fine.

[01:13:23] So I think a lot of this is,

[01:13:25] is you need to remember that this is somebody you're listening to somebody else's art and you're trying to apply that template to yourself.

[01:13:35] And there's no one-to-one relationship here.

[01:13:37] There's nothing that's going to match up from,

[01:13:40] from that to yours.

[01:13:41] There's,

[01:13:41] it is all subjective.

[01:13:42] It is art.

[01:13:44] And you have to internalize that and,

[01:13:47] and think of that,

[01:13:48] keep that in mind when you're doing this.

[01:13:50] But I think even when I was using that reference track,

[01:13:53] even I thought the vocal was a little like,

[01:13:56] I,

[01:13:56] and then I started listening to Green Day.

[01:13:57] I was like,

[01:13:58] is there,

[01:13:59] are the vocals way too buried on Dookie?

[01:14:01] And I'm,

[01:14:02] I was just even thinking that to myself and I'm like,

[01:14:04] but this is a reference track.

[01:14:05] I'm just going to,

[01:14:06] I'm going to use it as gospel.

[01:14:08] And I wish I had,

[01:14:11] I wish I had done the gut check and just,

[01:14:13] just turned up the vocal chest and just a little bit.

[01:14:16] But,

[01:14:18] but that's how you learn.

[01:14:19] That's how you learn,

[01:14:20] right?

[01:14:21] Yeah.

[01:14:21] You made a mistake and now,

[01:14:23] you know,

[01:14:24] for the future,

[01:14:25] don't bury the vocal quite that much,

[01:14:28] you know?

[01:14:28] So that's,

[01:14:29] that's how we learn things.

[01:14:30] And it's interesting,

[01:14:31] because like music back then,

[01:14:33] the,

[01:14:33] the vocal was more buried than it is today.

[01:14:36] It's more vocal focused or it sits even further on top.

[01:14:40] Yeah.

[01:14:41] Vocal forward.

[01:14:41] Absolutely.

[01:14:44] Well,

[01:14:44] that's,

[01:14:45] I mean,

[01:14:45] that sounds like a great place to end the discussion about

[01:14:49] reference tracks,

[01:14:50] which we've been having for a long time.

[01:14:52] Yes.

[01:14:53] I mean,

[01:14:53] I,

[01:14:54] I know personally,

[01:14:55] it's been absolutely brilliant talking to you.

[01:14:56] I think it's really interesting.

[01:14:58] Your background is fantastic.

[01:14:59] What's next for you?

[01:15:00] Have you got anything?

[01:15:01] Are you taking three years out to go and learn juggling and

[01:15:05] tour the world with something completely different?

[01:15:08] Yes.

[01:15:10] No,

[01:15:11] no,

[01:15:12] I'm not.

[01:15:12] Maybe I should.

[01:15:14] Start your own brewery,

[01:15:15] right?

[01:15:15] Yeah.

[01:15:16] No,

[01:15:16] I've been there,

[01:15:17] done that.

[01:15:17] Bought the t-shirt.

[01:15:18] Wine making.

[01:15:19] I'm sure that's what's next,

[01:15:20] right?

[01:15:20] No,

[01:15:21] no,

[01:15:22] no.

[01:15:22] No.

[01:15:23] Distillery?

[01:15:24] Oh,

[01:15:25] maybe.

[01:15:26] Yeah,

[01:15:26] maybe.

[01:15:28] Yeah,

[01:15:29] plans for the future,

[01:15:31] really,

[01:15:31] you know,

[01:15:33] these days I spend a lot of time coaching people and teaching,

[01:15:37] and I've really enjoyed doing that.

[01:15:41] It's been very fulfilling for me,

[01:15:43] more so than mixing for clients,

[01:15:45] if I'm brutally honest.

[01:15:48] So,

[01:15:49] I do have a couple of mixing projects coming up in the summer,

[01:15:53] the end of the summer,

[01:15:55] which,

[01:15:56] which will be fun because I know the people on,

[01:15:58] on the projects,

[01:15:59] so I know it's going to be fun.

[01:16:02] And,

[01:16:03] then maybe later on the year,

[01:16:05] I hope to get out another training course,

[01:16:07] which,

[01:16:09] I've done a few mixing courses,

[01:16:12] which are pretty much,

[01:16:14] most of them are all kind of rock,

[01:16:16] various different styles of rock,

[01:16:18] mixes,

[01:16:20] following those from start to finish.

[01:16:22] But this time,

[01:16:23] what I really wanted to do,

[01:16:24] and it's funny,

[01:16:25] the,

[01:16:25] the direction that this call has gone on really,

[01:16:29] is what I want to do is to try and shorten that 10,000 hour thing,

[01:16:34] and,

[01:16:36] concentrate on the,

[01:16:37] the critical listening skills,

[01:16:39] and the decision making,

[01:16:41] and the problem solving within mixing.

[01:16:43] And,

[01:16:44] I'd,

[01:16:44] I'd really love to be able to,

[01:16:46] come up with,

[01:16:48] well I'm working on it at the moment,

[01:16:49] actually,

[01:16:49] that were a course,

[01:16:50] where people can kind of accelerate those skills,

[01:16:53] a little bit.

[01:16:55] And,

[01:16:56] I'm really,

[01:16:57] I really,

[01:16:59] want people just to make decisions faster,

[01:17:01] because that's where the magic happens.

[01:17:03] And,

[01:17:03] I think people get bogged down,

[01:17:06] too deep in the what ifs,

[01:17:08] and the too many plugins,

[01:17:09] or,

[01:17:10] you know,

[01:17:12] and just stuck,

[01:17:13] or plateauing,

[01:17:14] or something,

[01:17:16] because,

[01:17:17] I just don't know which way to turn.

[01:17:18] And I think it's the overthinking aspect,

[01:17:20] because of all this information out there,

[01:17:23] on YouTube,

[01:17:24] and,

[01:17:24] you know,

[01:17:25] it's overwhelming,

[01:17:27] when you don't know which direction to turn in.

[01:17:29] So,

[01:17:30] I really want to shorten that,

[01:17:33] that journey for people,

[01:17:34] and just encourage people to make decisions,

[01:17:38] and see where it takes them,

[01:17:40] you know,

[01:17:41] and not second guess things,

[01:17:43] and just,

[01:17:44] because,

[01:17:44] like life,

[01:17:46] you know,

[01:17:48] you'd make one decision,

[01:17:49] it takes you down one path,

[01:17:50] and,

[01:17:51] and off you go,

[01:17:52] but what,

[01:17:53] what,

[01:17:53] what would have happened,

[01:17:54] had you made a different decision?

[01:17:55] I think we kind of touched on that,

[01:17:57] earlier about,

[01:17:58] the BBC,

[01:17:59] leaving or staying.

[01:18:01] So,

[01:18:02] you could bring that down into a mix.

[01:18:05] All those decisions you could have made,

[01:18:07] it could go in completely different directions.

[01:18:10] So,

[01:18:10] in essence,

[01:18:11] it doesn't really,

[01:18:13] matter.

[01:18:14] Just go with one,

[01:18:15] just make an effing decision,

[01:18:17] you know,

[01:18:18] and go with it,

[01:18:19] and see,

[01:18:20] where it takes you.

[01:18:23] Because it will sound great,

[01:18:25] it will still sound great,

[01:18:26] at the end of the day,

[01:18:27] it'll still work,

[01:18:28] unless you're making some real,

[01:18:30] god awful mistake,

[01:18:32] or,

[01:18:32] you know,

[01:18:33] using saturation,

[01:18:34] at a hundred percent,

[01:18:36] or something on your mix.

[01:18:37] And,

[01:18:38] and another,

[01:18:38] another topic for another day,

[01:18:40] is just that,

[01:18:41] and that is commitment.

[01:18:42] And I think that,

[01:18:43] uh,

[01:18:44] a really,

[01:18:45] really great way,

[01:18:47] to force yourself forward,

[01:18:49] in your learning,

[01:18:50] and,

[01:18:51] to move your music forward,

[01:18:53] is to,

[01:18:55] commit,

[01:18:56] yeah,

[01:18:56] to a sound.

[01:18:57] Print that plug-in,

[01:18:58] onto your music,

[01:18:59] and move on.

[01:19:01] Yes.

[01:19:01] You know,

[01:19:02] don't,

[01:19:02] don't wait to fix it in the mix.

[01:19:05] Yeah,

[01:19:05] your confidence is just going to come on leaps and bounds.

[01:19:08] Yeah.

[01:19:08] Um,

[01:19:09] it's like a muscle.

[01:19:10] Just make a decision.

[01:19:12] The more you use it,

[01:19:13] the better you'll get at it,

[01:19:15] and the more confident you'll feel,

[01:19:17] off the back of it.

[01:19:18] And,

[01:19:19] you know,

[01:19:20] that realization of,

[01:19:21] oh,

[01:19:22] you know what?

[01:19:23] It,

[01:19:24] that worked.

[01:19:25] It sounds,

[01:19:25] it sounds great.

[01:19:26] You know,

[01:19:27] and you've saved yourself,

[01:19:28] so many hours,

[01:19:29] in that mix,

[01:19:30] just by making,

[01:19:32] some,

[01:19:33] kind of,

[01:19:33] almost flippant decisions,

[01:19:35] really,

[01:19:36] because,

[01:19:36] I don't know if it's right or wrong,

[01:19:37] I'm just going to go with something,

[01:19:38] and see what happens.

[01:19:40] That,

[01:19:40] I'd love,

[01:19:41] that's what I'd like,

[01:19:43] to,

[01:19:44] to do,

[01:19:45] and,

[01:19:45] in taking away overwhelming indecision for people,

[01:19:48] to have the confidence,

[01:19:49] and the courage,

[01:19:50] to just,

[01:19:51] to just go with it.

[01:19:53] You know,

[01:19:53] nobody's going to die,

[01:19:55] it's going to be fine.

[01:19:57] You know,

[01:19:57] we're just making music here.

[01:19:59] So,

[01:20:00] but I understand,

[01:20:01] I understand that deep desire,

[01:20:03] to,

[01:20:04] to produce mixers,

[01:20:05] that sound professional,

[01:20:07] you know,

[01:20:08] whatever you want to call it.

[01:20:09] Me,

[01:20:09] I'd rather you produce mixers,

[01:20:11] that you're satisfied with,

[01:20:12] and that,

[01:20:12] you feel good about.

[01:20:16] And then it's all good.

[01:20:18] Yeah.

[01:20:19] Wow,

[01:20:19] that's incredible.

[01:20:20] Exactly.

[01:20:21] That is incredible.

[01:20:22] So,

[01:20:23] if somebody wanted to find out more,

[01:20:24] about these courses,

[01:20:25] where can they find you?

[01:20:26] Yeah.

[01:20:28] There is,

[01:20:29] of course,

[01:20:30] I've got,

[01:20:31] the YouTube channel,

[01:20:32] which is Sarah Carter,

[01:20:33] Simply Mixing.

[01:20:35] But,

[01:20:36] the,

[01:20:37] the website,

[01:20:39] is,

[01:20:40] you know,

[01:20:40] simplymixing.com.

[01:20:42] And,

[01:20:44] if you were to,

[01:20:46] kind of,

[01:20:46] subscribe to that,

[01:20:47] to my email list,

[01:20:49] you're going to be kept up,

[01:20:50] kept up to date,

[01:20:51] with regard to the,

[01:20:52] to the,

[01:20:53] release of that course.

[01:20:56] As I say,

[01:20:56] it's probably going to be near the end of the year,

[01:20:58] but,

[01:21:00] if it's sooner,

[01:21:01] it's sooner,

[01:21:01] that'll be great.

[01:21:03] And,

[01:21:04] I'm also on,

[01:21:07] Instagram,

[01:21:09] occasionally,

[01:21:10] Sarah Mixes Music,

[01:21:12] and,

[01:21:12] I've got a,

[01:21:14] private Facebook group,

[01:21:14] as well,

[01:21:16] called,

[01:21:16] Mastering Mixing,

[01:21:17] and Making Music.

[01:21:19] You're welcome to sign up,

[01:21:20] join that.

[01:21:22] It's free,

[01:21:23] obviously.

[01:21:24] But yeah,

[01:21:25] that's how you can,

[01:21:26] kind of,

[01:21:27] find out more about me.

[01:21:29] Sarah,

[01:21:29] at simplymixing.com,

[01:21:30] if you've got any burning questions,

[01:21:32] just email me.

[01:21:33] Happy to oblige.

[01:21:35] That's great.

[01:21:37] Fantastic.

[01:21:37] We'll put a link to all of those in the show notes.

[01:21:39] So,

[01:21:40] yeah,

[01:21:40] that's fun.

[01:21:41] No problem at all.

[01:21:42] Wow.

[01:21:42] Cool.

[01:21:42] Well,

[01:21:43] Sarah,

[01:21:43] thank you so much for,

[01:21:44] for joining us today for this conversation.

[01:21:47] Thank you for the invite.

[01:21:48] Yeah,

[01:21:49] this was,

[01:21:49] this was a really great conversation,

[01:21:50] and I think that a lot of people will find this useful.

[01:21:53] I hope so.

[01:21:54] It's been fun.

[01:21:55] So,

[01:21:57] yeah,

[01:21:58] it'd be,

[01:21:58] it'd be good to do it again sometime.

[01:22:00] Definitely.

[01:22:01] Yeah,

[01:22:02] I think there's a lot to,

[01:22:03] to pick up on for future conversations.

[01:22:07] So,

[01:22:07] I think that,

[01:22:08] that would be wonderful.

[01:22:09] Great.

[01:22:10] I think we should get you and Joe Gilder on.

[01:22:13] I've never met,

[01:22:14] I've never met him.

[01:22:15] I've never met Joe.

[01:22:16] No,

[01:22:16] so,

[01:22:16] we should make that work then.

[01:22:18] Well,

[01:22:18] then we should make that happen.

[01:22:20] We probably have very different,

[01:22:21] different opinions on,

[01:22:22] on things,

[01:22:23] but,

[01:22:24] we should make for a good,

[01:22:25] good conversation.

[01:22:26] Yeah,

[01:22:26] you'd be surprised.

[01:22:27] Yeah.

[01:22:29] Well,

[01:22:29] fantastic.

[01:22:31] Well,

[01:22:31] thanks so much,

[01:22:31] Sarah.

[01:22:32] Yeah,

[01:22:33] it's been a pleasure.

[01:22:33] It's been so good.

[01:22:34] It's been so wonderful talking to you.

[01:22:36] Yeah,

[01:22:36] likewise.

[01:22:36] Thank you.

[01:22:37] All right.

[01:22:38] Well,

[01:22:38] thanks everyone for tuning in and,

[01:22:40] and we'll see you again next month.

[01:22:57] Thank you for listening to Sound Discussion.

[01:22:59] Your hosts are Ben Holmes,

[01:23:01] Neil Merchant,

[01:23:02] and me,

[01:23:03] Nate Kelms.

[01:23:04] Our theme song is composed and recorded by Jojo Timmerman.

[01:23:08] You can find us on the internet at sounddiscussionpodcast.com,

[01:23:12] or you can drop us a line at sounddiscussionpodcast at gmail.com.

[01:23:18] Additional show notes for this episode can be found on our website or in the description area of your podcast player.

[01:23:24] A big thank you to our guest for taking the time to chat with us today,

[01:23:28] and to you,

[01:23:29] the listener,

[01:23:30] for taking time out of your busy schedule to be part of our discussion.

[01:23:34] We look forward to having you join us again next month on another episode of Sound Discussion.

[01:23:40] That kick drum sounds great.

[01:23:42] I wonder how they did that.

[01:23:44] And I thought,

[01:23:45] where on earth did that come from?